[Dalewyn]

A conflict without formal DoWs issued is not a proper war, FSVO proper. That doesn't detract from the hideous nonsense Russia is engaging in, of course; it's arguably worse than a war because they couldn't even be arsed to say it is one.

As much as diplomacy tends to be derided (and I'm certainly among those detractors), I also want to believe diplomacy still fucking means something for the sake of a civilized world.

[The_Colonel]

> As much as diplomacy tends to be derided (and I'm certainly among those detractors), I also want to believe diplomacy still fucking means something for the sake of a civilized world.

I don't understand what benefit for diplomacy is this insistence that a war without a declaration isn't a war.

[ffgjgf1]

Aren’t wars (in the traditional sense) effectively banned by the UN? If war is illegal under modern intentions law what’s the point of declaring one besides self-incrimination? If you invade a country and just call that a “special operation” you can at least maintain some pretense of legitimacy.

[miroljub]

What is happening currently in Syria? The USA hast still some forces there taking control of oil fields in a sovereign country. Can we count that as war?

[racional]

Can we count that as war?

Yes of course, and I'm not defending it, but it's still totally different in both scale and nature from what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

At least on surface appearances the US isn't taking control of the oil and selling it on the market (the oil is owned and marketed by the autonomous Kurdish government which runs the region).

And unlike Russia, the US certainly isn't seeking to permanent annex the region.

[hulitu]

> but it's still totally different in both scale and nature from what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

Because if Americans kill people, it is an act of justice, of spreading democracy (see also Irak, Afganistan, Yemen, various Latin American and African countries) not a killing. /s

[racional]

You can call it what you want.

But the U.S. operation involves less than 1 percent as many ground troops as Russia has deployed in Ukraine.

And last I checked, hasn't resulted in entire cities razed to the ground, and 15 percent of the population displaced.

[racional]

A conflict without formal DoWs issued is not a proper war,

If it helps clarify things for you: most wars are deeply psychological in nature; and part of how they operate is by telling people (both the perpetrators and victims) that it's not really a "war". But rather a "special operation". They will even lie right to your face, and tell you that they are there to "demilitarize" the area and to bring peace. And that to the extent that it might look like a war -- that will insist that they had no choice; it was forced on them; the other side could stop it at any time if they wanted to.

Proper declarations do have significance of course; but they are always secondary to the basic facts of what's happening on the ground.

[Dalewyn]

In case it wasn't obvious, no I don't buy Russia's "mUh SpEcIaL oPeRaTiOn!" bullshit. It's not a war either, for already stated reasons.

No, what's going on in Ukraine is even worse; it's unadulterated, uncivilized baboonery that should be an embarassment to all of humanity. Russia for doing it, and the rest of us all for failing to stop it (and so far putting an end to it).

It's the 21st motherfucking century and we can't even try to be civilized about brutally murdering each other en masse. Fucking hell, man.

[racional]

Yours is a non-standard usage of the term, then.

But I see the overall point you're making, and I've also taken the "Can we even call it a war?" perspective at times, not because of the lack of a proper declaration (which I see as insignificant), but from the sheer pointless, murderous insanity of it all.

A side note: It just so happens that the romanized version of the Russian acronym for SMO is SVO (that is, SVO = СВО and perhaps F meant "full"?) so I was temporarily confused by what you meant with that acronym. I now do see what you meant by it. But at the moment my mind was focused on the pointless insanity that we both agree is the situation in Ukraine, not math.