[inglor_cz]

It is not just a religion, but a legal and societal system. A very medieval one.

Few people care if you believe that Muhammad rode to heaven on a magic horse (Buraq). But quite a lot of people care if you want to introduce hand amputations for theft, as demanded by Sharia Law, or different inheritance rules for sons and daughters where being female = being less valuable.

The medieval-practical parts of Islam must definitely be kept in check, unless the country in question is willing to regress into some very dark ages. That is something that Ataturk understood very well when reforming Turkey.

[pseingatl]

Hand amputations for theft are not automatic, even in Saudi Arabia. Even pickpockets preying on pilgrims in the Prophet's Mosque do not automatically suffer the penalty.

However, many believe that this is the case. The erroneous belief does tend to keep crime down.

[mkoubaa]

Islamic law is understood by Muslims to be applied only in an Islamic state. In a secular state, the consensus understanding by Muslims is that the secular law is to be followed. A secular state need not suppress Islam

[inglor_cz]

"A secular state need not suppress Islam"

What about a secular state that doesn't want to become an Islamic state, but has a significant minority that has the opposite wish?

AFAIK this is the most important common political problem across the Islamic world. Many organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood want to Islamize their respective secular countries, some by peaceful means, others by violence. There has already been at least a dozen civil wars around that issue.

[mkoubaa]

A liberal secular state must respect the will of its citizenry, whatever it is. It must also suppress violent sedition with violence. Expressing that responsibility as suppressing religion per se is counterproductive

[feoren]

> A liberal secular state must respect the will of its citizenry, whatever it is

No. A tolerant, secular, liberal state should not respect the will of its people if the will of (the majority of) its people is to become an intolerant, religious, oppressive state. It is OK -- possibly even necessary -- to have a set of core founding principals which must never be abandoned.

[mkoubaa]

If you're saying that core founding principles were so important then you must feel that slavery shouldn't have been abolished, no?

[ffgjgf1]

Slavery was a “state rights” issue from the beginning. In what way was it part of the core founding principles of the US?

Also having “core founding principles” doesn’t mean that they are valid or that you got them right from the beginning.

[ffgjgf1]

So democratically abolishing democracy?

> respect the will of its citizenry, whatever it is

How do you define that? Is it always what the majority decides? What if the liberal secular government knows that going along with the will of the people will result in a minority of the population losing most of their rights and potentially suffering extreme oppression?

One could could assume that after learning what happened in Germany in the 30s (and some other comparable situations) most people would agree that even liberal states need to draw a line at some point.

[JumpCrisscross]

> liberal secular state must respect the will of its citizenry, whatever it is

This is majoritarianism. Not liberalism, and certainly not democracy.

[surfingdino]

Alas, religious people always want an exception to secular rule of law and in some countries in the West managed to carve out exceptions

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/applying-sharia-l...

[mkoubaa]

Secular law allows it's citizens discretions for settling family disputes and inheritance. Religious people often use that discretion to use religious rules from their religion. Nonreligious people benefit from the same discretion. This is not an exception from secular law, all secular laws continue to apply.

[surfingdino]

There should be a principle that secular law of the country overrides religious laws if the outcome is less favourable for the affected.

[ffgjgf1]

Not really? Islamists in secular Muslim states are trying to overturn the secular legal all the time (and have succeeded on numerous occasions). Often they end up compromising and end up with a mixed system which is also far from ideal.

[petre]

> But quite a lot of people care if you want to introduce hand amputations for theft, as demanded by Sharia Law

Probably why Salafism is outright banned in Tajikistan.

[aprilthird2021]

So... To keep thieves from having hands cut or people from having sexist inheritance, you need to North Korea the poorest people in the world to keep them poorer?

This is ridiculous, quite frankly. You don't have to approve of every law a foreign people have to not want to basically terrorize them with a despot