[throwaway9143]

"customer don't care what language/framework you are using" is a strange way to support a claim they do care about having a native app over a PWA. The first statement highlights that the user just wants something that works as advertised, and doesn't care about the framework. But the second statement highlights that, despite their disinterest in the technology, they care deeply about the app's delivery tech (PWAs vs native). I think this juxtaposition reveals a lot about why things are the way they are, and why users are forced to care about native apps over PWAs.

Just like language is a vehicle for logic, the app delivery tech is just a vehicle for a UI. PWA tech sucks because platforms are incentivized to make it suck. People prefer native apps because they're being funnelled down that path by anti-competitive interests. You don't seem to make that connection.

I get it, you were burned by PWAs and now you just want to build something that works for everyone relatively painlessly and makes money. Nothing wrong with that. But some of us also want support tech that fulfills the goals of the open web. You don't seem to care about that, but others do. Telling everyone its basically a lost cause is a silly and pointless endeavor, because PWAs are the long game, and you're playing the short game.

[joshstrange]

> But some of us also want support tech that fulfills the goals of the open web. You don't seem to care about that, but others do. Telling everyone its basically a lost cause is a silly and pointless endeavor, because PWAs are the long game, and you're playing the short game.

Get off the cross, we could use the wood.

Spare me. I love the web, in fact all my “apps” are built with web tech and I offer them all as websites/PWAs in addition to apps but standing on principals of only using the web as some kind of middle finger to the app stores AND your customers is just silly.

So I bite the bullet and wrap my web apps in a thin wrapper and shove them into the App Store. You can call it principles but I just call it stubborn and dragging your customers into a crusade they don’t care about.

At the end of the day I care about the customers of my products more than I care about trying to wage a losing war against something they actively want, apps from stores.

Life is way too short to tie up your identity in things like this. I want to spend my time making products people enjoy using. If you actually care so much about PWAs then stop writing PWAs that your users hate using and go be a full time advocate for that instead. Right now shipping PWAs is a worse experience so the only one you hurt is yourself and your customers when you double down on them.

[throwaway9143]

>If you actually care so much about PWAs then stop writing PWAs that your users hate using and go be a full time advocate for that instead.

I do care about PWAs, and so I am advocating, right now. I don't know why you come across as so angry about people who advocate for PWAs. Pushing companies to adhere to open web standards is a good thing, otherwise we'd still be stuck in IE6 world.

[jmb99]

It doesn’t count as advocating is your audience is only people who (in general) agree with you. I don’t think anyone on hackernews wants PWAs to be a worse experience, but they are. If you want to make a difference, you’re not gonna make it here.

“Preaching to the choir” comes to mind.

[throwaway9143]

>If you want to make a difference, you’re not gonna make it here.

I'm replying to the people who disagree with me here, and there are several. The readers who are on the fence can make up their own mind. Your discouragement is not necessary or useful.

[meiraleal]

Are you ok?

Your hate for PWAs seems a bit excessive. Nowadays it's possible to build binaries for iOS and Android using PWAs and it'll behave just live your Cordova projects. Don't be stuck in the past.

[joshstrange]

Please read my full comment:

> I love the web, in fact all my “apps” are built with web tech and I offer them all as websites/PWAs

I'm well aware you can build binaries and ship a PWA, I literally do that. I don't hate PWAs, I dislike people that refuse to ship anything but PWAs and I especially dislike being told I don't care about the "open web".

If you want to be a martyr and _only_ ship PWAs be my guest but pretending it's noble is just silly and drags your customers (you know, the people you should actually care about) into a battle they don't give 2 shits about all while making their experience worse.

[throwaway9143]

>I dislike people that refuse to ship anything but PWAs

What a weird thing to get all bent out of shape over. People do things a different way than you, get over it. If someone wants to only ship PWAs, why does that bother you so much? Because they're hurting users, and you're trying to protect them?

[mardifoufs]

Yes, if so he's right. PWAs are a bad experience for the user or at least a worse one than even just a webapp wrapped in a native app, regardless of the reasons. I've never had a pwa not feel like a hanky browser tab, and this is on android.

[throwaway9143]

Yeah but nobody here is making the case that PWAs are better than native apps. The point is that PWAs are worth getting better support because it's better for everyone.

[iudqnolq]

The user doesn't care about the delivery tech. They care about the installation and usage experience. They want to go search the app store, click the button, and get an icon on their homescreen.

[Turing_Machine]

How is requiring the user to open a completely different application a better "user experience" than installing it from the web page they're already on?

Yes, I know that installing a PWA is confusing (especially on Apple's systems), but there no reason it has to be that way.

PWA (if it were implemented properly): "Click here to install app". Click. Confirmation dialog. App is installed. App opens in the same window.

App store: "Click here to install app". Click. An entirely different application opens. Confirmation dialog. App is installed. You open it, but now you're in a different context.

[jmb99]

> PWA (if it were implemented properly): "Click here to install app". Click. Confirmation dialog. App is installed. App opens in the same window.

> App store: "Click here to install app". Click. An entirely different application opens. Confirmation dialog. App is installed. You open it, but now you're in a different context.

You’re unfortunately oversimplifying the PWA installation. Say a user has heard of a new service called “Florb” which has a PWA and a native app. To install natively:

1. Open the App Store

2. Tap the search button (optional, might already be selected)

3. Search “Florb”

4. Tap Get

5. Confirm download

For the PWA:

1. Open Safari

2. Search for Florb using your chosen search engine

3. Open Florb homepage

4. Tap “share”

5. Hunt and scroll for “Add to Home Screen”

6. Tap “Add to Home Screen”

7. Give the app a name

8. Tap Add

This is ignoring the possibility that searching Florb returns other sites first (maybe news articles about the neat service, or a wiki page), nor that there are usually enough ads on google pages to completely obscure the first real results from the screen on page load. Yes, the App Store also shows an ad, and it’s possible for other similarly named apps to appear first in the list, but it’s generally less of a problem than relying on google searches.

Even ignoring the fact that the average user doesn’t know or care that PWAs exist, the first option is simply easier and more reliable. There’s no getting around that. And that’s also ignoring that PWAs are, to an average user, “installing a website” rather than “installing an app,” which just feels wrong.

“Add to Home Screen” has been available on iOS since at least iOS 4 (that’s the first time I remember seeing it, but it may have been around longer). If people don’t care about it yet, I have a hard time believing they will any time soon unless it is substantially and objectively better than the App Store.

[Turing_Machine]

> 4. Tap “share”

> 5. Hunt and scroll for “Add to Home Screen”

> 6. Tap “Add to Home Screen”

>7. Give the app a name

> 8. Tap Add

None of this is essential except maybe 8.

That is why I said "if implemented properly". In specific,

> Yes, I know that installing a PWA is confusing (especially on Apple's systems), but there no reason it has to be that way.

> PWA (if it were implemented properly):...

You're also pretending there aren't a bunch of junk/garbage/spam/ripped off apps in the App Store with names similar to the real app.

I assure you that is not the case.

[mvdtnz]

This is an idiotic way of breaking it down. How does the user even know Florb exists? They're already on the web at this stage. You're also being totally disingenuous with your break down. Why does the user have to "hunt and scroll" for the app on the PWA side but not the app store? Go ahead, search for "fastmail" on your Android app store and tell me what the first and most prominent result is.

And when I click "add to home" in my browser's menu I don't need to name the app. The app has a name. What are you talking about?

[neoberg]

They can hear it from a TV/radio ad, they can see it on a billboard, they can hear it from a friend. Exploring that an app exists doesn't happen only on the product website.

[nailer]

> How is requiring the user to open a completely different application a better "user experience" than installing it from the web page they're already on?

Because it is strange and different. If Web apps were standard going to the iOS App Store would be weird. It’s not so PWAs are weird. Just give them an app, don’t make them work to install it.

[throwaway9143]

Bingo. Defenders of the app store have severe stockholm syndrome. Apple ruins the PWA experience intentionally, so they blame people who use PWAs, instead of Apple.

[meiraleal]

PWA has no marketing budget and a lot of people invested on private app stores attacking it.

[lynx23]

I have a different take. As a person reliant on accessibility, PWAs almost always deliver a worse experience for me. So after a while, I learnt to prefer native apps, simply because PWAs typically deliver a worse UX for me.

[throwaway9143]

That's interesting. In what way is a PWA worse than a website wrt accessibility? I understand that you are comparing PWAs to native apps, but presumably you have a fine time with normal websites? PWAs shouldn't be any different.

[lynx23]

Haha, nice suggestive questioning, but I am not falling for it. Your base assumtion is wrong, websites are not nice and dandy, its more like throwing dice to see if you're happy or not. In fact, the more "progressive" a website is, the less likely it is accessible.. If it is nominally accessible, its often not comfortable to use.