[alephnerd]

> If the western world wants to claim it’s better, it needs to actually be better

It's fairly easy and we already are.

For example, free speech. I guarantee you the videos I linked will be removed from Kuaishou in a couple weeks for "unspecific legal reasons".

Or the fact that we can protest without having to put pretentions about why we protest.

Or the fact that we can have this very discussion on HN without being banned.

Or the fact that you don't have to jump through hoops to find information in almost every case.

Or the fact that if you feel your speech is being infringed upon, you can actually work with the civil society actor of your choice to litigate.

Or the fact that the poorest states of the US have a higher HDI than all of China (let alone most of China's provinces).

At the end of the day, we need to remember that civil liberties are the steroid needed for innovation.

The West's:

- free speech helped it productionize LLMs well before China

- support of a liberal democracies and alliances helped diffuse semiconductor technologies like Lithography, EDAs, and Wafers to European (ASML, STMicro, Infineon), Japanese (Tokyo Electron, Nikon), South Korean (Samsung, SK Group, LG), Taiwanese (TSMC, PSMC), and Israeli (Tower) companies and partners, building out a global supply chain

- support for social diversity allowed a naturalized Germany from Turkey and a naturalized American from Hungary to invent and productize mRNA vaccines

- concentration on mutual development that lead to ADB, WB, EU, and IMF grants that helped stabilize and develop China, India, Brazil, Turkey, Vietnam, and Indonesia economies from LDCs to Middle Income countries

Concentrating on shoring up our allies (existing and upcoming) and well as recognizing that we are the part of the same team will allow us as a whole succeed as a society. There's no reason for the "Free World" to be American run alone

- Japan+SK+Taiwan+Australia have a massive footprint in democratizing and liberalizing much of Asia

- the EU plays a massive role in democratizing much of Eastern and Southern Europe

- Countries in the Americas like Brazil, Mexico, Chile, and Argentina are still flawed, yet are much freer than they were 30 years ago after the US adopted it's change in policy

[xinying]

There is a gap between freedom of speech in China and the US, but the example you gave attributing it to the fruits of liberalism is not correct. The globalization of the economy and the division of labor in industry is the inevitable result of capital expansion and industrial upgrading. It is also inevitable that labor-intensive industries will move to countries with low labor costs, as will the financial flows generated by these moves, as well as development banks. It is also the fact that there is a relationship between freedom and economic base, the United States and some European countries have enough economic base to invest in freedom, which is a virtuous circle, on the contrary, excessive freedom in countries with a poor economic base will divert the inputs of economic development, and will instead produce chaos

[presentation]

My point is not that the western world doesn’t do good things. The parent commenter wanted to dismiss nuclear innovation in China as being the result of totalitarianism and oppression rather than ingenuity and innovation, which I think is a bad line of thinking.

It begs the question that if liberalism is incompatible with doing great things, then why commit to it? I don’t believe it is, but falling back on excuses like that just seeds doubt in our true competency.

Pretending like China can’t do good things because of some preconceived notion that they are evil, and failing to admit that China actually is outclassing us in many things and that we can do better, is a great way to let that world order crumble.

[alephnerd]

> Pretending like China can’t do good things because of some preconceived notion that they are evil, and failing to admit that China actually is outclassing us in many things and that we can do better, is a great way to let that world order crumble.

Fair enough, and it's a line of thinking I agree with you about.

I detest "othering" - be it Westerners who do it about China, or vice versa. We're all psychotic apes so there's no point having a superiority complex based on identity.