[aprilthird2021]

I'm not a fan of either side. I really really don't like how America is overlooking the literal Nazis in Ukraine they are funding while pretending that various legitimate political positions on US social policies are equivalent to "Nazism".

But I also don't think any of these things justify invading Ukraine. "Pushing NATO borders on Russia"? Why does that justify invading Ukraine? If every country next to Russia joined NATO, that still wouldn't justify it.

[foverzar]

> But I also don't think any of these things justify invading Ukraine.

Russian intervention was triggered by Kyiv botching the Minsk agreements and terminating ceasefire. That's the prime reason, since Russia is legally bound to provide military aid to Donetsk by the abovementioned agreement. Western propaganda is hard on erasing the side that never supported the coup in Kyiv.

Everything else are just additional grievances, i.e. assuming that the current Ukrainian government is crazy and non-sovereign enough to allow deployment of missiles previously forbidden by the recently dissolved INF treaty.

[protomolecule]

>If every country next to Russia joined NATO, that still wouldn't justify it.

The US was going to start WW3 over Cuba becoming an ally of the USSR.

[geokon]

I always found this part confusing bc the US had placed missiles in Turkey beforehand

However the crux of the issue wasn't that there were missiles but that the missiles were placed secretly.

There is a nice podcast series about it

https://www.historyextra.com/podcast-series/cuban-missile-cr...

[racional]

Which "literal Nazis" are you referring to?

There's only one group which this could possibly refer to -- the Azov Brigade. You can say anything you want to about them -- but they definitely are not "literal Nazis", and that's their entire point.

Assuming you literally mean the literal sense of "literal" here.

[aprilthird2021]

I am referring to Azov, you're delusional if you think the brigade with literal Nazi symbols as their main insignia is not literal Nazis. They are powerful fighters, but any state with a semblance of wanting Western and US assistance should have disbanded the group, changed its name, changed its symbols, and put in place rules to stop them from constantly having Nazi insignia in their uniforms.

Propaganda is a huge part of war, and this: https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-s...

Is terrible propaganda, and it can be easily stopped. That's the most generous way of looking at it. The worst way, is that we'll have another "Fund the Taliban against Russia and see what happens" pt. 2 when the war is over and Azov beats all other parties to rule the area afterwards

[ganeshkrishnan]

Look at that guy's historical comments. All his comments are pro war in Israel and Ukraine. He is the glowie the newspaper is talking about. All of his comments are bone chilling.

[aprilthird2021]

I don't dismiss people's words based on the history of the person. The worst person can have sensible logic in some cases and vice versa

[racional]

The problem is that the GP is just lying, straight up.

[racional]

All his comments are pro war in Israel and Ukraine.

This is 100 percent false, and in fact the complete reverse of my position in regard to the Palestine conflict.

The statement "pro war in Ukraine" is nonsense also. This is a defensive war from the Ukrainian perspective, obviously and unambiguously so. Supporting their right to defend themselves is not a "pro war" position, and it is intellectually dishonest to suggest that it is.

[racional]

The brigade with literal Nazi symbols as their main insignia.

It's not a "literal Nazi" symbol. Importantly, it has a reverse orientation, and different proportion of its segments when compared with the Wolfsangel symbol. When you hold the two up together -- the difference is quite noticeable.

And even more importantly -- it just doesn't mean what you want it to mean. Azov maintains it wasn't derived from the Wolfsangel symbol, and is adamant that it is not intended as a symbol of Nazi affiliation or of support for Nazi ideology. In fact they say it derives from the abbreviation "National Idea", which means yes, they are self-described nationalists -- but not with any Nazi affiliation of the sort that you're trying to scare us with.

From Wikipedia:

    Andreas Umland, a scholar from the Stockholm Center for Eastern European Studies, told Deutsche Welle that though it had far-right connotations, the Wolfsangel was not considered a fascist symbol by the population in Ukraine.[114] In 2022 political scientist Ivan Gomza wrote in Krytyka that the symbolism of the regiment had become associated with a "successful fighting unit that protects Ukraine", and wrote that other connotations are lost on most people in Ukraine.

You don't have to like Azov or their beliefs. But the simple fact is, they do not use Nazi insignia, and when asked, their leaders uniformly state that they explicitly reject Nazism and antisemitism, and that they have Jewish members (and in fact a lot of native Russian speakers).

They've even jumped on the pro-Israel bandwagon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vMAo_zOgBA

If you keep digging you can also find a precious video of Azov commanders line dancing with orthodox rabbis on one of their visits.

You're delusional if you ...

The irony here that on this particular subject at least -- the one who's been played and propagandized is you.

That's why the usual actors who keep repeating the "Azov == Nazi" narrative based on trigger symbols, marginal sample data and other misleading information keep on doing so. Precisely because they know that it doesn't have to align with the facts -- and either way it will push your buttons, and spike your cortisol levels to exactly the range where they need them to be.

[aprilthird2021]

Why do you do all this twisting and turning to try to excuse these symbols "Ah it's a reverse orientation, ah it's just a nationalist symbol with far-right connotations, it's not Nazi!"

Why not just change the symbols because your biggest supporters and allies have issues with it and the history behind it (you know very well the history of Ukrainian collaboration with Germany in WWII and where these symbols come from. Sure it's complicated but that's where it comes from). If NATO can't show pictures of soldiers due to the insignia, if journalists have to ask the soldiers to remove certain patches before interviewing them, why do they wear them at all?

Just because they stand next to Jews doesn't mean they aren't the kinds of people who love far-right Nazi symbols and what they mean. Said Qutb moved to the US and spent lots of time around Americans before starting an anti-Western ideological group.

But all this could be eliminated if the insistence of Azov on their tarnished names and symbols were removed. Why do they cling to them so much? Why are they so resistant to such a sensible request? These are the things that make people hesitant to support them, and they are extremely aware of it. This is the reason the US had a ban on arming Azov for years till very recently. They know what it looks like and they fight to keep it that way. That should raise some concern for anyone.

[racional]

The one doing the twisting and turning on this subject is you.

The simple fact is -- you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked. Own it, and move on.

[aprilthird2021]

> you didn't do your homework on Azov, and so within minutes you got debunked

So it's not true that many Ukrainian regiments assisted the Nazis in WWII? It's not true that that is where these symbols come from? It's not true that the US had a ban on arming Azov for years for exactly this reason? It's not true that NATO can't post pictures of Ukrainian soldiers defending a sovereign territory from invaders because they wear Nazi insignia? It's not true that journalists have to ask the soldiers to remove their Nazi insignia when being photographed?

In fact all are true. Here are the sources:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-...

An image of a Ukrainian historical newspaper with a Nazi swastika and "Slava Ukraini" written at the top: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nove-zhittya.jpg#m...

https://www.newsweek.com/nato-says-it-didnt-notice-ukraine-s...

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols...

Don't close your eyes to facts and truth. The world is complex. Try to find the truth in that complexity