[lolinder]

Some people in those situations have absolutely chosen to get shot, which means that true determinism functions differently than a metaphorical gun. You might not be morally culpable for what you do while under threat of death, but that's a separate question from whether you could physically have done something different.

In a deterministic universe there isn't a gun to your head, instead what you will do was decided by the configuration of atoms immediately after the Big Bang (and presumably by the configuration of whatever the heck came before). In a deterministic universe I do what I do because particles hit into each other in particular ways over countless eons and those particle interactions eventually coalesced into what I call myself and the particles in my brain bounce in particular ways that interact to create an illusion of choice.

[naasking]

> You might not be morally culpable for what you do while under threat of death, but that's a separate question from whether you could physically have done something different.

The principle of alternate possibilities was debunked by the Frankfurt cases, and that was not the point of the gun scenario.

The point was that nobody would consider a person acting under threat of death to be making freely willed choices, so defining choice in the naive and reductive sense that was suggested is just incorrect because it cannot exclude this case. Therefore this naive and reductive definition cannot be what people mean by "choice" in the context of free will.

> In a deterministic universe I do what I do because particles hit into each other in particular ways over countless eons and those particle interactions eventually coalesced into what I call myself and the particles in my brain bounce in particular ways that interact

So an intelligent being was created with certain preferences and values, and as long as this being was able to deliberate and make choices in accordance with those preferences and values, that being was making freely willed choices. How this being was able to do this at the subatomic level is completely irrelevant, and bringing it up is, at best, a category error.

[joelfried]

> The point was that nobody would consider a person acting under threat of death to be making freely willed choices, so defining choice in the naive and reductive sense that was suggested is just incorrect because it cannot exclude this case. Therefore this naive and reductive definition cannot be what people mean by "choice" in the context of free will.

I disagree with this characterization as it omits entirely the moral culpability central to Frankfurt's argumentation. Frankfurt cases are about moral culpability[1]. I did not refer to morality or culpability but only the base naive case given that the question was "why can't you have both?" and I think the epistemic force of the base case is nontrivial.

I think your error here is that you are presuming:

(a) If you are acting under threat of death, you cannot do otherwise but save your life. (b) When you define freedom as the ability to have done otherwise, you cannot be free in the case of (a). (c) All cases of human choice must be free. (d) Given (b) and (c), the definition must be incorrect.

As the other person in the thread pointed out, some people can choose death in the face of death or some other choice. It has happened many times throughout history. So saying "you must save your life" is outright false. Some people choose one option, some people choose another. This has no force on the definition of freedom.

Even if you say in that specific case a person is not free because they could not do otherwise, it does not follow that the definition of freedom can't handle the case. It may follow that the person is not blameworthy - which is what Frankfurt was getting at - but that's nowhere near saying that the theory can't handle the case at all. Some might say the person under threat of death could do otherwise, some might say the person under threat of death could not do otherwise. That's not fatal to anything, it just shows the definition is incomplete.

[1] Wikipedia covers it somewhat here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_cases#Frankfurt's_ob... but if you don't like Wikipedia for some reason, the intro to this 2007 paper https://digitalcommons.unf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1... gives more or less the same description.