[delichon]

I'm about to replace my carpet and linoleum floor with 8mm "vinyl planks" that are 80% PVC. So since I'll be scuffing the floor and breathing the emissions most of the day for up to the rest of my life, it's at least a little encouraging that the FDA doesn't find a basis to ban it in food packaging. It's not that I trust the FDA, but more that I can't really afford hardwood or tile, so it's what I want to hear.

[OutOfHere]

I wouldn't do it. The dust gets in the air, and also absorbs via the skin while walking. Not only would you be putting your own health at risk, but that of any family members and/or pets too.

[kogus]

Not only would you be putting your own health at risk, but that of any family members and/or pets too.

I think his point is that the FDA finds that there is no evidence to support this claim. What evidence do you have that this claim is true?

[nrenegar]

A couple friends and I reviewed hundreds of pubmed studies on this. We have a summary at: https://shaperhealth.substack.com/p/life-in-plastic-its-not-...

There have been a number of papers from China showing that phthalate exposure from household dust is a real concern (e.g., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35508265/).

Phthalate exposure overall has been shown to have an adverse impact on reproductive health and infertility, metabolic and oxidative stress, cancer risk, cardiovascular health, the immune system (including children’s asthma), and neurodevelopment. Unlike dietary studies which often have mixed results, the conclusions on phthalate exposure are consistently negative.

No idea what the FDA is doing here. I understand government inertia but they seem asleep at the wheel.

[OutOfHere]

The FDA is corrupt. It works for enriching the pharma industry. Working for the taxpayer is just a pretense.

Do you see the drugs they approved for AD? These drugs all cause deadly brain bleeds by removing beta amyloid which is not even the cause of AD. There is no way that these drugs fix AD. Yet, they will make the drug makers pretty rich.

The FDA seems to have an internal mandate that no fixes are to be instituted if someone is not making continuously making a load from it, at least until the first few generations of patents have expired.

[boomchinolo78]

The FDA only cares about outright, immediately dangerous things. See how long they delayed with asbestos and thalidomide. Over long time frames, you are on your own

[OutOfHere]

Well said. I suspect there is a lot of lobbying and legalized bribery going on. For example:

"If you pay me enough in speaker's fees, I'll approve any chemical you want!"

"If you promise me a comfy corporate job after I put in my time here, I will do anything you want!"

[OutOfHere]

Rather, the FDA chooses to actively ignore the evidence that exists. With regarding to phthalates in general, this is just a sampling of the evidence showing harm:

Phthalates and Their Impacts on Human Health (2021)

> phthalates are more likely to enter the body through absorption via the skin and the polluted air due to fugitive emission [10]. Phthalates are semi-volatile organic compounds (SVOCs). DEHP and DBP are the main compounds in both indoor and outdoor air phthalates [11]. Dermal absorption also occurs from the daily use of PCPs containing phthalates via plastic package. Infants are exposed to phthalates by drinking breast milk with their mothers exposed to DEHP and DiNP, and sucking on toys containing DEHP, DBP, and BBP [10]. Phthalates are also found to cross the placenta-blood barrier, which is the major exposure route of the fetus [12].

> Studies found that low molecular phthalates, such as DEP, can acutely irritate the skin, conjunctiva, and mucous membrane of the oral and nasal cavities [20]. Phthalate exposure is associated with adverse developmental effects in terms of increased prenatal mortality, reduced growth and birth weight, skeletal, visceral, and external malformations in rodents [6]. Experiments on male rats found that the nervous system is rather sensitive to low doses of DEHP exposure during puberty [21]. The impacts of phthalates on human beings vary from gene expression to physiological changes. High molecular weight phthalates exposure is found to cause methylation status of imprinted genes, which could be directly related to androgen response, estrogen response, protein secretion, and spermatogenesis [22,23]. Human epidemiological studies have shown a significant association between phthalates exposures and adverse reproductive outcomes in both women and men, for instance, type II diabetes and insulin resistance, overweight/obesity, allergy, asthma [24].

Exposure to the plasticizer dibutyl phthalate causes oxidative stress and neurotoxicity in brain tissue (2024)

> The induction of oxidative stress in the brain subcellular fractions was proved by alterations in the activities of superoxide dismutase, catalase, glutathione reductase, and glutathione peroxidase along with the reduction in the total antioxidant capacity. Meanwhile, the levels of hydrogen peroxide and lipid peroxidation were increased. Neurotransmitters such as acetylcholine, dopamine, adrenaline, noradrenaline, and serotonin were altered in all subcellular fractions suggesting the disruption of the neurotransmitter system in the fish brain. These results indicate that DBP induces oxidative stress, which correlates with neurotoxicity in Pseudetroplus maculatus brain tissue.

Microplastics and phthalate esters release from teabags into tea drink: occurrence, human exposure, and health risks (2023)

> DEHP showed the cancer risk (CR) for children and adults. The findings of this research indicated that high MPs and PAEs levels are released from teabags into tea drinks. Considering a daily drinking of a volume of 150 and 250 mL tea by children and adults, 486 and 810 MPs may enter their bodies, respectively. Thus, tea prepared with teabag-packed herbs may pose a significant health risk for consumers.

Preconception Phthalate Exposure and Women's Reproductive Health: Pregnancy, Pregnancy Loss, and Underlying Mechanisms (2023)

> Results: An interquartile range (IQR) higher mono-(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate [fecundability odds ratio(FOR)=0.88; 95% confidence interval (CI): 0.78, 1.00], mono-butyl phthalate (FOR=0.82; 95% CI: 0.70, 0.96), and mono-benzyl phthalate (FOR=0.85; 95% CI: 0.74, 0.98) was associated with lower fecundability. No consistent associations were observed with pregnancy loss. Preconception phthalates were consistently associated with higher hsCRP and isoprostanes, as well as lower estradiol and higher follicle-stimulating hormone across the menstrual cycle.

> Discussion: Women's preconception exposure to phthalates was associated with lower fecundability, changes in reproductive hormones, and increased inflammation and oxidative stress. The pre- and periconception periods may represent sensitive windows for intervening to limit the reproductive toxicity of phthalate exposure.

Maternal phthalate exposure promotes allergic airway inflammation over 2 generations through epigenetic modifications (2018)

> Results: In LINA maternal urinary concentrations of mono-n-butyl phthalate, a metabolite of butyl benzyl phthalate (BBP), were associated with an increased asthma risk in the children. Using a murine transgenerational asthma model, we demonstrate a direct effect of BBP on asthma severity in the offspring with a persistently increased airway inflammation up to the F2 generation. This disease-promoting effect was mediated by BBP-induced global DNA hypermethylation in CD4+ T cells of the offspring because treatment with a DNA-demethylating agent alleviated exacerbation of allergic airway inflammation. Thirteen transcriptionally downregulated genes linked to promoter or enhancer hypermethylation were identified. Among these, the GATA-3 repressor zinc finger protein 1 (Zfpm1) emerged as a potential mediator of the enhanced susceptibility for TH2-driven allergic asthma.

> Conclusion: These data provide strong evidence that maternal BBP exposure increases the risk for allergic airway inflammation in the offspring by modulating the expression of genes involved in TH2 differentiation through epigenetic alterations.

From Oxidative Stress to Male Infertility: Review of the Associations of Endocrine-Disrupting Chemicals (Bisphenols, Phthalates, and Parabens) with Human Semen Quality (2022)

> Higher levels of urinary bisphenols showed correlation with impaired semen quality and increased DNA damage. Considering phthalates and their metabolites, all studies found a positive association between urinary levels of phthalates and at least one semen parameter indicative of low semen quality; some studies also revealed sperm DNA damage. The studies on parabens less often revealed correlation of urinary parabens concentrations with a decrease in sperm count, as well as motility and DNA damage. Moreover, EDCs can elevate ROS production and lipid peroxidation, increase apoptosis, induce epigenetic modifications, and change the Y:X sperm chromosome ratio and sperm protein composition. Our review revealed detrimental effects of EDCs on semen quality and sperm DNA integrity—especially in BPA and phthalates, but also in parabens.

Can phthalates impair liver function? (2019)

> Conclusions: The ubiquitous exposure to phthalates may be related to the impairment of normal liver function

[balls187]

I think more people would get significant benefit from using sun block daily then obsessing over minutiae like this.

[Aurornis]

Unfortunately, questioning sunscreen use has become a popular topic among health communities that obsess over (and misinterpret) studies about chemicals.

Even Andrew Huberman, who was held up as the most science-y podcaster before people caught on that he doesn't know what he's talking about on many topics (not to mention, it turns out he's kind of a bad person) made a big deal about sunscreen for a long time.

At one point he said he was "as scared of sunscreen as melanoma", which triggered a lot of his listeners to start reducing their sunscreen use and debating the merits of sunscreen. Combine this with other podcasters like Joe Rogan pushing Vitamin D as a miracle mineral and a lot of people who think they are science-driven in their health choices are eschewing sunscreen. It's a maddening turn of events.

EDIT: Aaaand of course I'm getting downvoted for calling out Huberman. This is a good time to remind everyone that he has numerous positions like this one, such as avoiding Bluetooth headphones due to "heating effects" of their wireless signal. It's impossible for Bluetooth headphones to even emit enough power to warm your skin, but it's something he believes is true. He's very charismatic and charming, but he frequently strays from the science when he senses a good story that will engage his listeners.

[balls187]

Not to go off topic--cheating on his girlfriend and being a man-whore is bad behavior, yet I don't think that makes Huberman a bad person.

[Aurornis]

That's dramatically oversimplifying the situation. He didn't just "cheat on his girlfriend". He was carrying on six simultaneous relationships while misleading at least one of them into thinking they were monogamous and trying to conceive a child with her.

The big article that came out exposed how he had patterns of misleading people, telling people whatever they wanted to hear, abusing therapy speak to manipulate people, and it established a pattern of dishonesty. To reduce that all to "cheating on his girlfriend" is not accurate.

[balls187]

> telling people whatever they wanted to hear, abusing therapy speak to manipulate people, and it established a pattern of dishonesty.

I read that article in NY Mag prior to my comment, and then again after this comment. That wasn't my take-away. Sounded like a guy who got real famous and started to play the field, albeit badly. There was no evidence (that I recall) that Huberman acted this way in previous relationships, and no evidence that he will continue to act this way.

Not great behavior, not going to excuse it, but hardly the behavior I would say makes him a bad person. My opinion is philandering is relatively common behavior for people (men in particular) who achieve a certain level of fame and/or status.

[jf22]

I find it ironic when overweight people with an empty, sugary iced coffee drink next to them complain about the scary-sounding ingredients in processed fast food they eat.

The scary ingredient is not your biggest health concern...

[tcoff91]

Isn't most carpet made of synthetic fibers? i'm not sure how staying with carpet is any better.

And I can't imagine that polyurethane finish on hardwood floors is good either.

[throwway120385]

I would probably resin coat my floor instead of using urethane, but I would agree there. Even concrete floor contains silicates. I also wonder what kind of microparticles scuff off of a tile floor.

Shellac or traditional varnish are probably the only things you could put on your floor that aren't produced with an industrial process. Shellac in particular is the harvested secretions of a beetle that have been cleaned and dissolved in alcohol. But it's water-soluble and so probably not appropriate for use on a wood floor. You could also use tung oil or boiled linseed oil but you'd have to sand down to #0000 steel wool to get it to shine like urethane. Tung oil is a nice coating because it doesn't turn orange like BLO, but either one you will have to keep applying every few years or the floor will stop repelling water.

Obviously we'd end up with huge Tung plantations or Shellac plantations if we tried to replace all of our floor coverings with this stuff.

[kragen]

polyurethane is a resin

tung oil is pretty toxic. boiled linseed oil has heavy metal salts in it to make it polymerize, though typically nowadays these are cobalt, iron, and manganese rather than lead; calcium and zinc are basically nontoxic alternatives

shellac is not water-soluble; it's alcohol-soluble and thermoplastic

the plantation sizes necessary to coat everyone's floor with tung oil or shellac are fairly modest

[e44858]

"Boiled" linseed oil is not actually boiled, to save costs they just add metal salts to catalyze the polymerization. You can get linseed oil without the heavy metals, that is actually boiled: https://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/products/danish-oil/

[kragen]

danish oil has heavy metal salts in it, specifically salts of cobalt and zirconium: https://www.coo-var.co.uk/files/ww/safety/308-Q271%20-%20DAN...

ionic cobalt and ionic zirconium are both of fairly moderate toxicity; they aren't in the same ballpark as things like lead and mercury, but they also aren't as relatively harmless as calcium or zinc

i think that normal 'boiled' linseed oil does have stand oil in it, as well as the siccatives we're talking about here and other additives like antiskinning agents

[kjkjadksj]

I’d worry less about silicates than anything. We evolved along sandy coastlines not polyurethane or pvc.

[kragen]

crystalline silica is an iarc group 1 carcinogen, the highest-concern category, and occupational illnesses due to crystalline silica exposure have been well known for thousands of years

[_DeadFred_]

When I built my home I used concrete floors that I then kept waxed. It seemed like the best solution I could find. But then we had to cover the floors with wool rugs because the acoustics were painful.

[kjkjadksj]

I assume you don’t cut tile with a tile saw very often without a respirator so its a non issue.

[OutOfHere]

To my knowledge, olefin synthetic carpet is not known to contain phthalates. I would however avoid the ones that claim to be stain-resistant, as they're more likely to contain iffy coatings.

[teekert]

Carpets often repel water… using PFAS.

[vundercind]

Yeah, and I bet even the expensive wool stuff that only rich people buy is treated with scotch guard and flame retardants with questionable health effects.

[lazide]

Bonus - scotch guard == PFAS

[candiddevmike]

Wait until you hear what chemicals your clothes are made of.

[lazide]

Just wait until you hear about tire dust!

[lazide]

If it’s any consolation, even old wood floors will typically shed plastic particles when worn as they get refinished/sealed with polyurethane. Some really old school folks will use boiled linseed oil, which isn’t a man made plastic - but does polymerize into a type of plastic when it dries.

[oooyay]

You can have VOC testing done to determine if yours are off-gassing. That's the real test, not the FDA. Generally speaking Luxury Vinyl Planks are the way to go if you don't want to risk off-gassing.

[OutOfHere]

A simple TVOC & HCHO meter at home should imho be a low-cost first step, indicating a need for improved ventilation, or for eliminating questionable sources of the gassing. The alcohol hand sanitizer sets off the TVOC reading though.

[macNchz]

I’m not convinced that the TVOC sensor included on consumer air quality monitors does much beyond give people anxiety. Maybe it’s useful if it prompts people to open their windows more often, but mine is so impacted by daily activity and subject to calibration drift to the point I wish it wasn’t part of my sensor unit. Opening a single bottle of beer will spike the levels for hours. It’s a super effective fart detector. I’ve had one for four years but I don’t know how I’d use it to determine whether some new product was harming the air in my home, the readings are just too noisy.

[OutOfHere]

With regard to a new product, I would try seeing the reading first thing in the morning before any human activity.

[hanniabu]

Why would LVP be any different?

[oooyay]

They aren't made of PVC so they don't contain phthalates

[hanniabu]

This is what i found when looking it up....

Luxury Vinyl Plank (LVP) flooring is made up of multiple layers of materials, including polyvinyl chloride (PVC), wood composites, and limestone stabilizers:

Backing: A layer of foam, cork, or PVC

Core: A WPC (wood polymer core) or SPC (stone polymer core) core

Vinyl layer: A layer of PVC

Glass fiber: A layer of glass fiber

Print layer: A layer that displays the product's colors and design

Wear layer: A protective layer made of polyurethane that resists scratches and stains

Urethane coating: A protective coating

[oooyay]

Hm, I wonder how that composition varies, but at least off-hand the quantity probably matters. It's the off-gassing and the top coat that get you with flooring.

[hanniabu]

From my understanding the "luxury" part is from the design and texture, but the composition is more or less the same

[bottom999mottob]

I know it's the lesser of two evils but I'd rather have quality vinyl off-gassing PVC than carpet emitting PFAS and trapping dirt.

[bufferoverflow]

Don't do it. PVC should not be inside your house in large quantities.