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macOS 15.0 supports Nested Virtualization on M3 chips (developer.apple.com)
138 points by zshrc 731 days ago
6 comments

Asahi Linux supports nested virtualization on Apple Silicon M2, where the feature is present in the chip, but not exposed by macOS.
I was shopping for a phone some time ago. iP14 Pro had always-on display while non-Pro version didnt. Apple justified it by non-Pro having lcd, while Pro having Oled.

Next year iP15, both non-Pro and Pro have Oled, but again only Pro has always-on display.

Honestly that is the reason I am still on my Note9, and looking for another Android.

I understand what product segmentation is, and probably I am minority, but damn, it feels like subscription-based heated seats.

The screen on the (non-pro) iPhone 15 still has the 60Hz refresh rate, which is a limiting factor claimed by Apple, not just OLED.

Because in always-on mode, the refresh rate on the Pro drops down to a much lower refresh rate, as low as 1Hz.

Apple could've shipped an always on display mode with either OLED or a variable refresh-rate screen (or neither), but they only wanted to do it when they have both.

OLED so that black pixels are not illuminated and you save a good chunk of battery on that.

Variable RR so that you can drastically reduce that to save battery life as well.

This is not software segmentation though. The Pro's OLED display is really a different hardware component that supports varible refresh rates down to 1Hz ("Pro Motion")
I think if that was the real reason, then the feature would be available but default to off on the non-pro version
That is absolutely not how Apple operates, especially on the iPhone. The
Uh, yes it's not.

Wasn't that the point? Apple loves to use such artificial segmentation to upsell their products

>Apple justified it by non-Pro having lcd, while Pro having Oled.

Did Apple explicitly say something to that effect, or is it just the media or random comments who made this justification on their behalf?

In any case, besides concerns for "best performance/more battery" etc and enabling stuff were it's more well supported, Apple also puts different specs to different models for reasons of product differentation / price segmentation.

All iPhones since the iPhone 12 (except the SE model) have had OLED screens. Non-Pro iPhones don't use LTPO, which is the tecnology that enabled the screens on the pro models to dial down to 1hz. It's also what they use to enable AOD on their smartwatches.

Also, this is completely off-topic to the original comment.

You would NOT want to use always-on with lcd.
Like 10 yo Nokia had it on LCD screen and it was fine, both readability and battery life.
> Apple justified it by non-Pro having lcd, while Pro having Oled.

Where did Apple justified that?

In the iP14 keynotes it explained how the oled allows for always-on display.
Yes, and there they explain, how this is possible with an OLED display which is capable of 1 Hz refresh rate which the OLED display on the non Pro iPhone is not capable of
Yeah, it’s just another artificial limitation to get people to buy a newer laptop. They hit the devs where it hurts
And ipadOS not even one layer of Mac virtualization
At this point, only the EU can save the iPad from being eWaste World Champion.

Mandate support for alternate OSes, like Asahi Linux on Macbook, https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Apple-Platform-Secur...

> ipadOS not even one layer of Mac virtualization

iPadOS 17 on M4 has a "Secure Exclave" OS, https://mastodon.social/@_inside/112440596781136013

What eWaste are you talking about? The lifetime, battery life, and software updates are way longer than those of any other tablet on the market. iPads are not a replacement for Macbooks or PCs; let it be the iPad.
There has not yet been a tablet that was commercially competitive with iPad, measured by sales volume/revenue.

Perhaps a future PC OEM 2-in-1 will be successful, based on Qualcomm Oryon/Arm SoC from ex-Apple Nuvia.

> software updates are way longer

There's no "longer" for comparison, when there is no competitor.

Old iPads could continue to work for years, running Linux. Apple could unlock the boot after terminating support.

And what would you do with an ipad running linux? There's no tablet software.

May sound harsh, but the Open Source movement is just not capable of producing enough software to make Linux a viable on the desktop, let alone on the tablet.

Linux became a thing because computing devices were available for development. I guess if enough Ipad hardware is available without too much black magic, there could be a stack viable based on linux or some other OS (possibly not yet created)
Linux has been 'ready for the desktop' for more than a decade, far longer for those who use it 'professionally' so that old trope can be put to pasture. As to what to run on a Linux tablet there's Plasma Mobile (KDE), Ubuntu Touch, Gnome/Phosh, PostmarketOS with any of the above and more. If you're looking for a single 'Linux tablet interface' you won't find it as there is no single 'Linux $thing' anywhere - you get the choice between many alternatives, some more polished/functional/useable than others.
Bluetooth keyboard + mouse. I have an iPad that is eWaste because Apple said it is even though it technically still functions and would work great if Apple would let me use it as a terminal to my main computer
What stops you running Android apps on it?
iPad+Linux could be a single-function "embedded" device.

  web browser 
  IoT control panel
  video conferencing
  photo frame
  e-reader
  kiosk
I have a 12 year old iPad running as a photo frame. Doesn’t get security updates, but then again it stays at home with only a single app running.

One of the things that keeps fascinating me about Apple is how they keep coming out with better and better iPads, even though they don’t seem to have any real competition. Take the new iPad Pro. It’s super thin, got a brand new tandem OLED screen that goes up to 1000 nits and is decent for using outdoors. They even put a new M4 chip in it which has faster single core performance than any desktop chip by Intel or AMD.

Do you run any specific app for photo frame or just included Photos app?

I have an old iPad, haven’t been using it so this gave me an idea.

But old iPads already work for yeeeears.

My work ipad pro is 4 years old, and I can't be bothered to replace it (I can upgrade for free at work, at the 'cost' of having to migrate my apps and data etc...)

My personal ipad mini 3 has been travelling with me until last year, as ebook reader. Sure it was heavily handicapped in the sense that I did not get app updates or any new apps really. But I still have my books and goodreader app, and still had VLC, and until very recently also netflix. That thing was 9 years old and I only retired it because work unlocked my work ipad so I only travel with 1 ipad now.

> There has not yet been a tablet that was commercially competitive with iPad, measured by sales volume/revenue.

There is no tablet market, there is an iPad market and "other".

If they are replacement or not should be decision of person who bought it, not company who sells it.

They can still keep their ecosystem. You should be able to unlock it to install alternative operating system.

Unlocking should be explicit to not give an option for theft.

Nope! In the same way, I don't want to be able to install a "custom" OS in my car; I don't want the ability in more personal devices. "Opening" is weakening; there's no way around it.
> "Opening" is weakening

Please respect ancestors!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system)

  Darwin is the core Unix operating system of macOS (previously OS X and Mac OS X), iOS, watchOS, tvOS, iPadOS, visionOS, and bridgeOS. It previously existed as an independent open-source operating system, first released by Apple Inc. in 2000. It is composed of code derived from NeXTSTEP, FreeBSD, other BSD operating systems, Mach, and other free software projects' code, as well as code developed by Apple.
My ask doesn't violate your freedom.

Your ask violates mine.

Here,

https://www.samsung.com/us/apps/dex/

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface

Vote with your wallet, if enough people do that, maybe Apple will notice.

Now if you already validated what they are selling is enough to keep the masses happy, then it is as it is.

The second link (to Surface) is trying to sell a Surface computer (i.e., hardware).

The first link appears to be... presentation software? I think? It talks a lot about Samsung devices but doesn't appear to be selling a specific device (i.e., not hardware. I don't see how the software would affect sales of the iPad (which is hardware).

(Was there a different link you meant to share instead? :) )

> The first link appears to be... presentation software? I think?

Can you try to do at least the bare minimum of trying to understand the text instead of badly extrapolating from the pretty pictures?

The number of people who are willing and able to “vote with their wallet” for alternative OSes on iPad is insufficient for results.

The vast, vast majority of iPad users want iPadOS and nothing else.

Hope is not a strategy.

Yet another proof that those that want something else, should sponsor someone else for their efforts.

Not give money to Apple, and then complain.

But which software stack? Android? Windows? Both are barely usable and for the most common tasks iPadOS is sadly miles ahead.
Waiting patiently for the first Nuvia/Oryon/SDXE tablet or 2-in-1, with detachable non-bluetooth keyboard

The Snapdragon Elite devices launched so far have been laptops.

With the EU now going centre-right (and largely at the expense of Greens) their long-standing stance on eWaste (and similar consumer-oriented regulation) is likely to be casualty.
I was at the most recent CCC conference and there was a discussion on "Spotting tech fictions as replacement for social and political change". What I heard was the same line of thinking I had heard since the COP21 Paris Climate Conference 10 years ago.

The solution is to push the green agenda through activism and pressuring politicians/corporations to enact sweeping motions. During this talk, they discussed pushing people to take the bus in place of getting an EV with a series of methods to penalize owning a vehicle.

Its funny how given yesterday's results the talk that happened in the last days of Dec (so just 6 months ago) is now looking obsolete but I saw this over the last 10 years as the promised commitments of COP21 fell by the wayside anyway. I used to joke about how conservatives in the US lived in a bubble. Now I am seeing techies like the OP are also in a bubble.

I recall speeches by British celebs in the late 90s when this sort of thing first became fashionable. Some lady told a huge crowd that they need to unplug their kettles. You are not serious people.

But I'm sure it feels great to sit around at conferences and discuss "pushing people to take the bus". Heck, it is a whole industry unto itself, isn't it?

P.S. - I do think climate change is a serious issue. Figured I'd mention that before the usual responses that shun and excommunicate me as a "denier".

This will simply not have "political solutions". Realistically the greens are counter productive to the max and always have been. It is simply the self-flagellation remnant bits of defunct religions. Devoid of rationality.

See also: Germany and nuclear power. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Out of curiosity, what do you think should be done to mitigate the climate issue?

I personally believe in engineering solutions that are better than the current solutions. With the collapse in prices for EVs, I am drooling over these super cheap electric cars and hope to one day have a backup used car just for fun trips around town. Or maybe just pick up a single long range EV for a little bit more. Right now the repair market is still in its early stages but its getting there. I dream of owning a single EV model that lasts me for 30 years powered by solar. Plus the cost of electricity is trending towards 0. I am always trying to find ways to swap out my lifestyle with something more efficient. Am I an outlier, yes but I see technical solutions coming to the mass market and I remain optimistic a tiny bit.

>With the EU now going centre-right (and largely at the expense of Greens)

I'm annoyed by the media coverage which all imply the Right won seats at the expense of the Left when, as you say, it's mostly the Greens (who, yes, are technically Left) who lost seats.

What's even more annoying though is I need to take a magnifying glass to even see the additional seats won by the Right. The Left still holds majority and haven't even lost an unusually large number of seats.

There obviously are exceptions when looking at the election more microscopically, like in France, but overall it's mainstream misleadia.

What's surprising to me is this disinformation campaign by the media only serves to try and empower the Right, which I always thought was something the media do not want.

> The Left still holds majority

This is factually incorrect.

Summing the votes of all parties that could be considered left (Green, S&D and The Left) you get 224 seats, which is about 31% of the European Union Parliament.

> the media only serves to try and empower the Right, which I always thought was something the media do not want

Whatever gave you that impression? A significant percentage of all media outlets are owned by very right-leaning businessmen, or otherwise entangled in capitalism to such extent that it may bias their judgement

A plurality of Western media is far-far-left leaning.
well if you want to go all conspiracy theory, the media wants clicks because that gets them ad revenue, and so are making it seem like the right is winning because it gets you to click on the article which then, after you've scrolled past a bunch of ads, tells you they didn't actually win that many seats.
Considering the latest EU elections I wouldn’t bet on them
eWaste? What are you talking about? iPads have typically gotten 7-9 years of software updates. Its not intended to be like a direct laptop replacement. Sure you can do laptop like things but that is not what the iPad is. Even then, most laptops don't even get that kind of support. Calling the iPad "eWaste World Champion" reeks of ignorance about what the device is about.

Instead it really is a unique device with unique use cases as evidenced by todays keynote. Did you watch it? I came away impressed with the cool things they developed just for the iPad.

> 7-9 years of software updates

After which they could run Linux, instead of being e-waste.

> unique use cases as evidenced by todays keynote

Mark Gurman, Bloomberg journalist covering Apple for years, https://x.com/markgurman/status/1800348268385521876?

  Apple needs to put 25% of the vigor into iPadOS that it just put into Apple Intelligence because this is getting ridiculous. The iPad Pro gets incredible new hardware and an M4 chip and then iPadOS essentially gets nothing of substance.
iPadOS 18 did get a calculator.
>After which they could run Linux, instead of being e-waste.

There is so much PC based garbage that ends up in the eWaste trash destroyed way before years 7-9 hit and you are complaining about a device that is not even designed to be used in a server/desktop OS configuration?

>iPadOS 18 did get a calculator.

This really does explain it all...Just pure ignorance based on hatred of Apple.

> There is so much PC based garbage that ends up in the eWaste trash destroyed way before years ...

So you're saying people should just accept their old iPads can't have a meaningful life after iPadOS support ends?

And that's because "Apple doesn't want them to", so that's it. No questions asked, just accept the results?

> pure ignorance based on hatred of Apple

I'm typing this on iPad Air and looking at an iPad Pro, Mac Mini and Macbook Air.

And never will (probably), Apple has been clear for years about market segmentation.
It's about control. If they would allow virtualization then some people would use that to run software Apple can't control, especially not monetize.
Shouldn't people be able to run whatever software they like on a device they've purchased?

Anything less isn't full ownership.

They can purchase something that allows that.
It is no different than Windows Home, Professional, Workstation, Enterprise, Nano, Server,....
No, it is VERY different from Windows Home/Pro. Windows doesn't bar you from running custom code.

Windows Home does not ship Hyper-V, but it allows you to run your own hypervisors just fine.

It's not about running arbitrary code, though; it's that you're specifically trying to use the exact thing that the cheaper edition has removed from it to create market segmentation.

In the case of Windows Home, that's components like Hyper-V. (Imagine taking Windows Home and injecting Hyper-V from a pirated copy of Windows Pro.)

In the case of iPadOS, that's all the components that macOS has that iPadOS doesn't.

The way to "add" those components to iPadOS is different, but the effect would still be the same: having a computer that works like it has the better edition installed, without paying for the better edition.

Not yet, see Win32 sandboxing efforts, bringing UWP security model to everyone.
Well, Windows is also user-hostile and engages in control tactics.
Might be better to compare it to the Xbox or PlayStation.
Windows Server is actually quite tightly controlled licensing wise.

Any client user/device using any service on the server requires a client access licence (CAL).

It'd be super useful if Asahi Linux worked on iPads. :)
Servers aren't really Apple's thing, so it hasn't been much of an issue, but isn't this something Intel CPUs have supported for almost two decades?
Came here to say the same thing
Anyone have a practical case for this? Not complaining just wondering.
CI systems often run their workloads in virtualization (for both security and ease of uniform deployment), but sometimes the jobs themselves use a VM to either run part of the build process (such as depending on a tool distributed using Docker, which relies on such due to the host kernel not being Linux) or run some of the unit/integration tests (whether to create a clean environment or to take advantage of the hypervisor to get fast emulation of a target device, such as an Android phone or whatever). Without nested virtualization, services such as GitHub Actions (or locally hosted options; FWIW, GitHub also lets you bring your own "runners") have thereby been somewhat crippled on Apple Silicon.
Nested virtualization would be needed if you want to test out a Windows VM with the various Hyper-V integrations like WSL2, credential guard, etc.
Oh, that’s an excellent point. Things like WSL2 are very seamless so I don’t normally think of them as being virtualisation even though they obviously are. I might even use this myself as I need to document software development tools for Windows users.
Docker containers (ie Docker Desktop) running inside macOS VMs.

That would fix a current blocking problem, as the lack of nested virtualisation means Docker Desktop (which runs its containers inside a Linux VM) has to run on the host and can't run inside a VM.

Running an older version of macOS, which supports older versions of Xcode and then using that to run older iOS simulators.
Isn't the simulator not a VM? I thought it was more something like wine.
Correct, the simulators run regular macOS processes that are linked against a different set of userland libraries than usual. No virtualization involved.
Could I run an older version of macOS that still ran 32bit apps?
macOS Mojave is the last version to support 32-bit applications. It only runs on x86_64, so you'd be emulating it, not virtualising.
Inception
I'm not a super-advanced user, so could somebody please let me know if this will allow running Windows on an ARM based Macs? Or perhaps running a VM with macOS Big Sur on macOS 15 ( I'm looking to install a specific version of an app via App Store - a version that is limited to macOS Big Sur )? Thanks in advance!
You can already run Windows on Macs, just look at UTM or Parallels. You can also already run Big Sur on macOS 14.

Edit: Should've added that you can only run Windows ARM. Emulating x86 on ARM (= running "normal" Windows on macOS M-processors) may be possible (I'm not sure), but practically not usable as it will be painfully slow. That will probably not change in the near future. However Windows ARM contains a Rosetta-like x86 emulation layer so with some luck you won't even notice that you're running Windows ARM and not "normal" Windows.

> Emulating x86 on ARM (= running "normal" Windows on macOS M-processors) may be possible (I'm not sure), but practically not usable as it will be painfully slow.

I tried the UTM qemu based solution for x86 windows. It's there and it ... starts. But yes, it's way way too slow for daily use. If you just have an occasional task like document conversion once in a while, i guess you could.

That's the issue - you can not run Big Sur on macOS 14 on an ARM Mac - from what I know, this is only possible on an Intel machine. Perhaps also on the very first M1 Macs, though I'm not sure about that one. Or am I wrong?
I’m even less, what’s nested virtualisation?
Nested virtualization is running virtual machines inside other virtual machines. Like the movie inception
For a practical example: running WSL in Windows in macOS.
thank you, I am a noob. This sound like an amazing addition. Would this mean I could run a linux distro on an ipad which has M3 chip?
No, iPadOS doesn’t have virtualization support, only macOS does.
Still no USB Passthrough it seems. It's a pity.
That is something that Parallels traditionally had for x86, isn't it also the case for Parallels with Windows on ARM?
That's up to the virtualization solution you're using.
The link is specifically about Virtualization.Framework.