[eslaught]

I'm reading NeuroTribes by Steve Silberman, and while I'm not all the way through, the narrative of there being a "real" autism (and specifically as identified by Kranner) is very problematic at several levels. First, Kranner hired multiple staff who had worked under Asperger and therefore there are questions about priority. But putting that aside, Asperger was actually aware of the more serious autism cases and intentionally hid them to protect his patients from Nazi concentration camps (or just straight up murder in their "psychiatric" facilities), which in the early days targeted many children who would today be diagnosed with autism (with horrible consequences, obviously).

Kranner also intentionally set up his referral network to filter out the lower end of the spectrum of cases, such that he missed what Asperger has correctly identified before him: that is, that it's a spectrum.

Being a spectrum means that there is an extreme end where things are really, really difficult. I'm sorry to hear you're experiencing that, but that's not to say the spectrum isn't real or there hasn't been a battle to get to the point of recognizing that it exists.

As to the GP's comments specifically, NeuroTribes provides a lot of evidence that searches for autism "cures" have almost universally hurt autistic people, and I mean this is a very practical, and frankly horrifying, sense, not in the "my feelings are being hurt" sense. The piercing irony of a lot of these cases was that Kranner's own follow up to some of his methods indicated that his own techniques were actually making children's lives worse, not better. Some of the children who did the best were frankly just left alone---which says a lot about what we've done for them.

So, I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's worth being at least aware of the history, because a lot of it is frankly really dark.

[cogman10]

The history of all psychiatry is dark. The problem with pointing at the history and saying, "Look at the terrible history of autism treatment!" is it often treats all current treatments as being equally as horrible as the "Let's try and shock the autism out of these kids".

Modern treatment and therapy are not focused on "curing" autism. It's pretty much all about building out life skills. It doesn't do that by slapping the kids for doing the wrong thing.

For example, part of my kid's therapy has been around tolerance for brushing teeth. Are you seriously going to try and argue that my kid would be better off if they never went through that therapy? Even though they can now tolerate teeth brushing and even having the dentist poke around in their mouth.

Autism is a spectrum and so are the therapies for it. Certainly, kids with more mild forms of autism don't need as much therapy, but it's really frustrating to see "Look at the time a guy tried slapping kids with autism, all therapy is this bad".

[kuschku]

To neurotypical people ABA may look successful, but its success comes from breaking the spirit of autistic children. It's just traumatizing you until you stop feeling anything and just learn how to fake the happy reactions expected of you while suffering silently.

In the short term it looks successful, in the long term it's the reason why meltdowns even exist and why so many autists unalive themselves.

I was an extremely autistic kid, barely able to exist in regular school, constantly hitting my head against walls, often nonverbal or having meltdowns.

To teachers, parents, caretakers therapy seemed to "fix" me, but it didn't, it caused even more trauma.

In reality, I didn't need fixing. What truly helped was an environment where I can manage how much stress I experience. Where I can take a quiet break whenever I need to.

20 years later, as an adult, I'm living a genuinely happy life, because I'm not forced to live according to a neurotypical schedule anymore.

[parpfish]

Isn’t almost everything we teach kids some form of “breaking their spirit”?

The first several years of schooling are really just teaching them to sit still, listen, and do a bunch of work you hate instead of playing.

That’s breaking their spirit but it’s essential for them to become adults

[kuschku]

This "breaking their spirit" is precisely why so many adults nowadays have major issues figuring out what they want to do with their life. Every bit of joy has been methodically stripped away from them over years.

That kind of schooling barely works for neurotypical kids, of course it can't work for much more sensitive neurodiverse children.

Schools shouldn't turn lively, active children into depressed obeying robots, and they're not the place to park your children while you're working either.

We need to rethink education as a whole, it's just the more vulnerable children (autists, immigrants, traumatized children) that act like a canary in the coal mine for our school systems.

[mobiuscog]

> That’s breaking their spirit but it’s essential for them to become adults

If being an adult, is a human with a 'broken spirit', that may well explain many of the problems with modern society.

> do a bunch of work you hate

How about we encourage people to use the skills and passions they have, rather than box them into conforming to the vision of the few ?

[iteria]

> How about we encourage people to use the skills and passions they have, rather than box them into conforming to the vision of the few ?

Because life doesn't work like that. If you want to be a doctor you need to undergo a grueling training regimen. I'm deeply passionate about software, but that doesn't change that 80% of my time is spent doing boring, tedious work because that's what work is. Even if you're an artist. I know literally artists. There is no way to have fun all the time doing something productive.

That's why I teach my (admittedly, high functioning) ASD daughter about tolerating non-preferred activities to get what she wants. Yes, she finds having her face painted disgusting, revolting, skin crawling. She willingly endures it every time because she delights in the result. It's her choice every time to sit in a chair and have it done. That's the kind of thing I want her to take from childhood into adulthood because every adult has to do things they hate for the sake of society running and even the care of themselves.

Same way I don't like exercise because it's just actively awful because of my condition, but to not do it is to make myself deteriorate over the long term because of my condition. I want my daughter to be able to make those kinds of decisions. What sucks, but is good for her in the long run. We finally got bathing on the list. No one is going to argue with me that a person who never bathes is a functioning person.

I will continue to "train" my kid. Her life is better for it. Ever since she got therapy she has been happier, more stable, less disturbed by the world, and more able to connect with people both like her and not like her. If any parent could get an outcome like mine from "training" they'd pick it every time. No one is gonna tell me when my kid used to slap herself and cower under chairs is better than my kid who is probably too obsessed with trains and rainbows and spins while she walks when happy. I think I like her spinning better than her cowering.

[mobiuscog]

There is a difference between support towards a better life, which is what you are describing, than 'breaking their spirit' which is often what schools and very commonly what employers do.

It's not about always getting your way or doing things you like, but by the same measure, people should never be forced to 'conform' if it's not critical to society.

It's great that you support your daughter, and that therapy is available. We don't have the same degree of difficulty in our family (myself and daughter both very 'high functioning') but that makes it almost impossible to get support and the world is just typically set on 'breaking our spirit'.

It sounds like you're doing the right thing, but conformance would not be. So many of the most successful and inspiration people, are not those who conformed, but perhaps were more privileged in their opportunities.

However we may disagree in part though, I commend you on your approach and absolutely agree that if it can become a person's choice, so long as it doesn't take advantage of their vulnerability in choosing, it's often for the better.

So much of what is 'boring' or 'tedious' is also contextual. Two different software companies offering the exact same role, may have vastly different expectations and the experience to the employee also vastly different. I don't expect 'fun' all of the time, but I do expect work to be engaging and driven towards the value I bring - if I'm expected to become 'someone else', then there is no point.

[parpfish]

I don’t know how you can be a well adjusted adult unless somebody instills some discipline

[cogman10]

> 20 years later, as an adult, I'm living a genuinely happy life, because I'm not forced to live according to a neurotypical schedule anymore.

Perhaps you can appreciate that 20 years is a long time and therapy/medicine has changed a lot since then.

I'm really sorry that therapy was terrible for you. That sucks. However, you do need to realize that not all therapy is ABA and that ABA itself has changed substantially in the last 20 years. A lot of the therapy that my kid gets has built in breaks for the kid to make sure they aren't overwhelmed, there are certainly days when the session is basically "we couldn't do anything today because your child seems overwhelmed".

School is also different. My kid's school has a dedicated room for kids to volunarily go to when they are feeling overstimulated. Most IEPs (US) provision that for kids primarily in general education they get pull outs as needed if they are feeling (or appear to be) overstimulated. My kid wears headphones most of the day because noise bothers them.

The goals of my kid's therapies are life skills, Communication and personal care. We aren't trying to make them not autistic, we are trying to make sure they can brush their teeth and dress themselves. Do you really think those sorts of therapy goals should be abandoned?