[nathan_compton]

I think the preponderance of evidence points strongly to these phenomena being purely mental - in particular the vast majority of conscious behaving entities which we encounter on a regular basis are physical objects with certain properties (having a brain is the big one) and what we know about physics, biology, computation, and neuroscience makes a pretty compelling case that the physical object in question (the brain) is intimately, probably one to one, connected with the phenomenon we identify as the entity. It would be very strange if we found evidence of non-material entities given this context. And in the case of the self-transforming machine elves we very clearly have a compatible alternate hypothesis: they are generated by the brain which we are mucking around in with chemicals which are known to disrupt its behavior.

[spacetimeuser5]

>>And in the case of the self-transforming machine elves we very clearly have a compatible alternate hypothesis: they are generated by the brain

And what is the actual evidence for this alternate hypothesis? Please provide the exact description of neuronal circuitry (numbers of neurons, network architectures, interconnectivity patterns, amounts of neurotransmitters used, spike patterns and the resulting EEGs etc) which generates this exact experience. Ask a distinguished professor of neuroscience. Use integrated information theory, emergent properties, quantum collapse in microtubules, whatever currently established paradigm - and provide the exact, 100% comprehensive and full description of the brain state that presumably generates this exact experience, also allowing to differentiate from all other experiences like just "machine elves", "non-self-transforming machine elves" or elves with any other properties. Or just begin with the 100% comprehensive and full description of the brain state/circuitry generating the taste of vanilla, which would be distinctly differentiable from the state/circuitry generating a taste of chocolate or garlic.

[nathan_compton]

You don't need a perfect account to have a reasonable account. You've set up an absurd standard which essentially no knowledge could reasonably meet. I'm not a distinguished neuroscientist, but I've published papers in neuroscience and while we certainly can't provide a full account of the precise details of these brain states, the balance of the physical sciences, including neuroscience, leads me to strongly favor the "machine elves aren't real" hypothesis.

[spacetimeuser5]

[flagged]

[mythrwy]

I think you may have touched on the actual lesson of psychedelics:

"I think the preponderance of evidence points strongly to these phenomena being purely mental"

Agreed. Along with all phenomena anyone experiences in general.

We all create reality strictly in our heads which corresponds, with varying degrees of accuracy, to external phenomena.

We like to think this is not the case and we are in possession of "objective fact", or maybe we are not at this moment, but objective reality certainly is out there and we are on track to get it.

But maybe it's really just mental abstractions all the way down. All the way down into the earliest evolutionary days of perceiving distinction between light and dark.

We cannot see certain wavelengths of light for example. But butterflies can. So when I look at a flower with UV markings and a butterfly looks at the same flower, who is right? How much more "information" is available about (for instance) this flower if we could only perceive it? How much magnesium is in it? How about if we couldn't see things that were not static for more then a day just like we can't see sub-millisecond motion with our eyes and have to measure it with instruments? Would the flower even exist for us in casual every day life at that point?

We have monkey eyes for the most part. We see what a highly evolved monkey would need to see, no less, no more. This in my opinion is what is so startling (and potentially therapeutic) about psychedelics. It awakens us to the fact that perception, which we firmly believed to be unassailable reality, is just perception and there exists the possibility to think about things in new ways, to create a new reality in a manner of speaking.

[nathan_compton]

There is a huge difference between believing "perception is possession of objective fact" and "its mental abstractions all the way down," but I think a reasonable appraisal of the world makes both almost certainly equally wrong. My assertion that the machine elves are mental phenomena should not be taken to mean that I think everything is, which I think is a pretty silly idea.

[mythrwy]

When we perceive something, anything, it comes to us strictly as a mental (or emotional or sensational if you like) projection.

In other words, our perception is inevitably subjective and personalized.

Now most of us can agree on many things, but this is because we have the same frames of reference (as modern humans etc). Under normal circumstances we have similar mental models and similar perceptive facilities which given similar phenomena produce agreement.

But this agreement doesn't doesn't necessarily tell us what a phenomena actually "is" in objective fact, nor give us all available information about the phenomena. It only means we agree on a picture of objective reality (which is important for our species) and that our mental models more or less work to guide us around. But that in no way implies we are, nor are necessarily capable of being, in full possession of actual objective reality.

If we were an gnat 1/2 mm in length with a 3 day lifespan and many less neurons we would probably perceive things very differently. Or (as a thought experiment) if we were Lord God of the universe, immortal creator of time and space.

Point being, all reality we experience goes through our minds, our experiences, our filters and the picture at the end corresponds roughly with something we call "objective reality".

This isn't to bash on objective science nor promote superstition or argue for the objective physical existence of machine elves either. Some models and perceptional frameworks work better then others when you are trying to survive as a species and rational measurable science is pretty powerful tool. But sometimes, maybe especially with therapy issues it could be useful to back up and remember we have a frame of reference. It can be changed to some extent.

When someone sees a "machine elf" yes they are hallucinating, we can agree on that and we sober people don't see the elf nor can we measure it with instruments so it's reasonable to say it's simply a mirage or a mental trick.

But is there perhaps some underlying "reality" to machine elves that is translated as a "machine elf" because what the hell else could you call it? Maybe not an external sentient being, but part of a collective unconscious we share as humans? Or maybe (less probably imo) there is more sentience in the universe then we currently understand? I don't really know, but that so many people have similar experiences is interesting and perhaps worth exploring to better understand what we as humans are underneath this superficial top floor of consciousness.

[nathan_compton]

I'm not saying that machine elves definitely don't exist and I'm certainly not saying that my collection of things I think are true are objectively true. I'm simply saying that from my point of view its very unlikely that machine elves being real is the explanation for people reporting interactions with machine elves.

I believe its important to explore these experiences and I think people should do so, both under the aegis of science and less formal self exploration. But in the end we cannot just accept mere perception as naively correlated with reality. The process of connecting perception to reality is one of the great works of human beings and, from where I am sitting, that great work seems pretty definitively negative on machine elves.

[nuc1e0n]

Very interesting thoughts you've got there. Nice