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by rav3ndust 739 days ago
just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the more 'traditional' Linux desktops, such as Plasma or Cinnamon?
3 comments

Most distros can't even recover from a shutdown while updating (windows handles it since Vista).
That's why using immutable distros is awesome. Worst case scenario, you can boot the previous version.

I've been using Fedora Silverblue for a while and never got a borked upgrade. It's not without its own flaws, but if you can live with mostly flatpak apps, it's a pretty compelling package.

Same with FreeBSD with ZFS on root. Bectl makes an automatic snapshot every time. Not even any need to deal with an immutable OS.
Funny you say this, my windows can't seem to recover from updating. Several times it has been stuck for more than one hour at which point I yank the power and try updating some other time. Even the most slower linux distros update in minutes and never failed me for more than a decade.
It's extremely rare that any modern journalling filesystem (Windows, Linux, MacOS) can't recover from an unscheduled shutdown these days.
Yeah but shutdown while updating is a lot less likely when the OS isn't forcing updates.
on nixOS, if something borks, i can do a system rollback right from my bootscreen. easy-peasy.

on debian, i can create system backups/snapshots via timeshift and restore them if something breaks.

what do you mean?
To find the answer, try to convince a large number of people/businesses to use one of them.
A lot of the issue is that you were able to name more than one, and that was without mentioning Gnome or XFCE
I think that's the great thing about Linux.

Something like gnome is so closed down that it couldn't be for everyone. I tried using a ton of plugins to make it workable but then things break with every update.

If Gnome doesn't work for everyone, what they had to do was make it work. There has to be a way. The vast majority of the market is using Windows and Mac, and somehow both have avoided the need for multiple separate DEs.
I actually moved away from Mac because it's so opinionated just like gnome.

But what's the problem with having choice?

a small anecdote:

in 2019, my wife finally got fed up with windows 10. she used no software that was 'windows-only', so she asked me if i'd help her begin the move over to gnu/linux.

i made her live-drives of several different distributions, and showed her how to boot into them on her machine to play with the live environments. iirc, she messed around with ubuntu, solus, mint, and elementary.

she liked the fact that she had so much choice available to her. she eventually settled on mint cinnamon, as it has an environment she is familiar and comfortable with, and that was that. she's been running it ever since. and, keep in mind, my wife is someone who doesn't live and breathe computers like most of us here do.

i know there are the people out there who have disdain for the amount of choice we have in the linux desktop space ("fragmentation!"), but most people appreciate the amount of choice on offer.

It adds complexity, especially for new users and even more for corporations. There's maintenance burden as different DEs fall out of favor, things become incompatible, and you have to migrate. Even sticking to one Linux distro, the default DE can change across versions. If you want to troubleshoot online, you can't Google "how to do X in GNU/Linux," you have to specify the DE and version too. Vs with Mac or Windows it's quite clear what you're using and how you get help for it.

Most people don't even think that far though, they just want a name brand they can trust and understand. So the most popular desktop Linux is probably ChromeOS.

> how to do X in GNU/Linux

That's because GNU/Linux isn't an OS. The distributions are distinct OSes. They just have a lot in common.

> It adds complexity, especially for new users and even more for corporations. There's maintenance burden as different DEs fall out of favor, things become incompatible, and you have to migrate.

Corporations can easily mandate whatever distro and DE they please on their internal systems. Not an issue.

The maintenance burden is on the distros and they can choose which DEs they support. They don't have to offer them all. In fact some distros come with a single DE only.

I know the wishful thinking that Linux would be a single system that would make it big with consumers. But if that happens, people that love Linux now will absolutely hate it. It will be unrecognisable. All the power and control will be gone because consumers don't want that. They must want to pay someone and trust them.

Case in point: ChromeOS. It's exactly that: Linux for the masses. How many Linux fans actually use that because it's Linux?

i mentioned the two I thought people moving from windows would be most comfy with.

for them, taskbar on bottom + 'start' menu = "neat, i already know how to use this!"

personally, i use i3/sway tiling window managers, and also keep gnome around if i want a full desktop. personally, i love the amount of choice we have in the gnu/linux world. if something doesn't work for you, you can select from so many other options.

"but...but...fragmentation! those guys working on cinnamon/mate/etc should just join gnome or kde and make The One True Desktop!" eh. i don't buy this line of thinking.

There are plenty of informally agreed-upon defaults in the GNU/Linux world. For instance almost everyone uses Bash, Git is the dominant version control, and the default browser is usually Firefox-based. This doesn't mean alternatives shouldn't exist, but they aren't neck and neck. Somehow no DE has won yet, and that's a serious usability problem.
i'd say, in a way, we have 'informally' agreed upon a default desktop.

the flagship edition of ubuntu? GNOME.

the flagship edition of fedora? GNOME.

RHEL? GNOME.

installing debian with its defaults? GNOME.

while KDE ships on a few distros by default, and Mint ships with Cinnamon as its flagship, by-and-large, GNOME is what you're gonna get from your "major" distributions.