[buffalobuffalo]

I agree that such mockery isn't very charitable, but there is an underlying line logic to their thinking. We know that a system like North Korea's is possible. We know a system like ours is possible. We don't have any evidence that any other system is actually possible.

Sure you could imagine something better. But such a system could very easily have fatal flaws you didn't imagine. In fact, North Korea started as just such a utopian ideal.

You could also argue that we used to have a system that was better than this. But if that system ultimately became this one, than reverting to the previous state would likely at some point result in the current state occurring again.

So in a sense "Do you want to live in North Korea?" is the only valid question.

[thrance]

I think North Korea was always an authoritarian state from the get go, it was built by the soviets over the ruins of the Korean war. It's just coated in a socialist paintjob just like many other dictatorships.

You're right in that reverting to a previous system will always be a temporary solution, but I don't believe there is any perfect system able to endure until the end of times.

"Do you want to live in North Korea?" should never be used as an argument against any kind of reforms deemed "socialist" by the Right.

As a start, would it be so bad to implement a carbon tax? Tighter control of human rights on foreign imports? Stronger social nets? The list goes on...

[buffalobuffalo]

Sure. I agree Many of those things would be a net benefit. So why don't we have them?

It seems to me, the main reason is that representatives won't vote for them. Why not? Mainly because their financial and political incentives are structured in such a way that they can't. Why are these incentives like this? You can keep peeling back layers of the onion like this forever, but as some point you realize it's just due to structures of the system that will recreate themselves in any similar system. Like how wings evolved separately in different evolutionary branches but all conform to a similar structure. Any capitalist economic system will have methods for vested interests to inhibit many types of positive change.

[thrance]

Humm sure, I agree with most of what you said.

I want to believe we can have a better economic system, not necessarily capitalistic, maybe one where resource allocation is achieved more democratically.

Capitalism, with all its flaws, was still an improvement over feudalism. I refuse to believe it can't get any better.