[wood_spirit]

Thinking about problems and data manipulation in the way array languages enable is hard but, once you have pushed through the what feels like a barrier of mainstream programming language thinking that is stopping you from “grokking” it, it is a sudden moment of clarity and then you “get it”.

Perhaps a half way house is sql. The difference between ORM-style CRUD and a power user using window functions to make the data dance shows there is still art to be had in programming :)

[breck]

Agreed. Pushing through until you can think in array languages is well worth it! In my experience one of the top 30 highest ROI mental circuits you can develop.

That being said, I'm not convinced that the extremely minimal syntax is essential. I think it can be done another way ;)

[hoosieree]

I started with J but now prefer K and I'm writing an interpreter for a K-like language in my spare time for fun.

I'd say the minimal syntax isn't just a gimmick, because it really does help with mentally chunking phrases/idioms to a degree that's not possible when the same phrases are multiple lines long. Terseness also makes it physically faster to write the same thing, which encourages interactive experimentation much more than other languages.

These are small things, but taken together you get an experience that's more than the sum of its parts.

A lot of folks seem to tolerate K syntax because K jobs pay well. (Supposedly. I've never seen a super-high paying K job in real life.) But I actually like the K syntax because it helps organize my problem solving, and it gets out of the way during experimentation time. To me it's like NumPy/Pandas but better designed and without all the ceremonial boilerplate.

[jimberlage]

Would an array language without the terseness, but with hygienic macros, fit the same niche?

[rak1507]

I don't see how it could, the terseness is the point. I'm not sure how a macro system could really help. Did you have a specific idea in mind?

[jimberlage]

The thought was - if I have a long piece of code repeated, and I want it to be shorter, I can

- Use a language that minimizes the code to write

- Use a helper function, maybe at some runtime cost

- Use a macro, turning a short piece of code into a longer one, at a compile-time cost

Having a DTI (debt-to-income ratio) macro and a very short definition of DTI that looks similar everywhere in code sort of do the same thing.

[bravura]

Can you please share a few of the other 30 highest ROI mental circuits to develop?

[breck]

Good question.

I should make a ranked list.

In regards to programming, my top 30 would include:

ScrollSets: https://breckyunits.com/scrollsets.html

RegEx.

The dataflow paradigm as popularized by dplyr would be on there.

HIT ranking: https://breckyunits.com/hits.html

[raverbashing]

But tbh it looks worse than matlab