[marcosdumay]

The modern web development practices are just insane.

The GP's idea that a frontend developer would send a ticket to somebody so they can get all the data they need... it's just crazy.

On the other extreme, we have the HTTP 1.0 developers saying something like "networks are plenty of fast, we can waste a bit of it with legible protocols that are easier to make correct", while the HTTP 2.0 ones are all in "we must cram information into every single bit!"

Every place you look, things are completely bananas.

[klibertp]

> idea that a frontend developer would send a ticket to somebody so they can get all the data they need... it's just crazy.

For me, what's crazy is that there are "web" developers who can't just add the endpoint they need while working on a frontend feature, or "web" developers who can't just add an element or a page for testing the backend endpoint.

What ever happened to full-stack developers? The "frontend" and "backend" developer split is so incredibly inefficient that it's really jarring—you take something that should take 2 hours and magically, through tickets, delegation, and waiting for results (then repeat that for debugging, who knows how many times!), make it into a 2-3 day task.

I once reproduced (black-box style!) a two-week effort by a three-man team in six hours of work simply because I had PyCharm and IDEA opened side-by-side and could write code on both sides at the same time.

If someone has a good explanation for why the full-stacks that were once the norm went almost extinct, I'd be happy to give it a read!

[GeneralMaximus]

For context: I work on large-scale browser apps that are closer in complexity to something like Linear or Obsidian than to your standard WordPress blog with some forms. E.g I'm currently working on a browser-based GIS tool for the financial sector.

I started my career as a full-stack developer, but went all-in on frontend because I felt I was spreading myself too thin. At one point I found that I could choose to be almost good enough at doing two different things or extremely good at one thing. I chose the latter option.

Modern browser apps are complex beasts, at least if you want to do them right. You obviously have to worry about all the technical bits --- HTML, CSS, JavaScript, your view library of choice, platform APIs like <canvas> and WebAudio, cross browser testing, bundle sizes, performance optimizations, techniques like optimistic rendering, all that good stuff.

On top of that, you also need to work closely with designers to make sure they know the features and limitations of the platform(s) they're designing for. More often than not, you end up being a sort of bridge between the backend devs, designers, and product managers.

A lot of times you end up doing design too, whether you like it or not. I've learned a lot about UI/UX design just because I often have to fill in the gaps where a designer forgot to include a certain error state, or didn't test their design on tablet screens, or didn't account for cases where a certain API might not be available.

I tried for many years to learn as much as I could about Django as well as React and friends. But it eventually got too much. I found that I wasn't able to keep up with both ecosystems, and I was producing code that wasn't very good. I could certainly build things quickly because I was familiar with all parts of the stack, but it came at the cost of code quality, security, stability, and robustness. I eventually decided to hang up my backend developer hat and focus exclusively on what goes on inside the browser (which can be a lot by itself these days!)

It's probably possible for a single individual to build a high-quality server-rendered MPA with some forms without making a mess of it. But that says more about how good Rails/Django/Laravel are than about the capabilities of any single individual. I don't think a single person could build a product like Linear end-to-end without cutting corners.

[int_19h]

IMO the fact that being a full-stack dev is so taxing is an indication that the stack as a whole is just way too complex and overengineered. Which is rather obvious from looking at the state of affairs on the frontend side of things. Desktop GUI devs don't usually have those problems.

[mc10]

I don’t think this is a fair conclusion; web development is harder than desktop GUI development for various reasons.

For one, clients (mobile, desktop) are drastically different with all sorts of downstream implications:

- Differing screen size requiring responsive design

- Internet speeds magnitudes different

- Intermittent internet

- Uneven feature support due to different versions of browsers

- Everything needs to be JS at the end of the day

Desktop apps generally don’t have to worry about any of these issues.

Also, desktop GUI frameworks are typically either fragmented (one per OS) or don’t look OS-native.

[int_19h]

Thing is, even when web apps are essentially used as desktop app replacement (Electron etc), all the complexity discussed here is still there.

As far as looking OS-native, this is (unfortunately) increasingly less relevant as OSes themselves drop desktop UX consistency even internally. But that aside, Qt is still around and is a very mature framework for "near native" UI, and then there's Avalonia and others. Even Gtk is surprisingly decent on Windows these days. Although I'm not sure what this all has to do with the original subject, since web apps most certainly don't look native anywhere.

[evantbyrne]

I don't think the claim is that a single developer should be able to build an entire enterprise product, but rather that a single developer should be able to implement the software side of a task end-to-end. The latter is a reasonable expectation when your software is monolithic.

[apsurd]

> ... I don't think a single person could build a product like Linear end-to-end without cutting corners.

Cutting corners is a feature. I bet the Linear team is as pained as any, internally, at the tradeoffs they're making.

There is no way to know "what to get right" without going through it. So for 80% of the dev cycle the job is to cut corners to get to the 80/20, rinse and repeat forever.

This isn't against excellence and the dream of a beautiful product experience as your reply seems to convey.

[marcosdumay]

If you absolutely need 2 people for that, they should be side by side.

But yes, that break-down of the problem is insane. People artificially split an atomic problem in two, and go create all of that extra craziness to try to solve the communication problem they made.

And then people go and push UX and UI tasks into the frontend developer, and ops tasks on the backend since them are there... What is insane again, because those are really incompatible tasks that can't be done with the same mindset.

And since it's standard, backend tools won't support the frontend and the other way around. So the insanity gets frozen on our tooling.

[riffraff]

Because people have a limited appetite for complexity.

I wrote some front-end stuff back in the days but I've lost track of whatever is happening these days. jQuery to append some stuff took five minutes to learn, but learning react hooks takes a determined effort.

Likewise, adding a field to a graphql type is simple, but doing it with authorization, controlling n+1s, adding tests etc.. requires front-end folks to actually invest time in learning whatever back-end they're dealing with this time.

Everything is just a lot more complicated these days, and if you've been around for a while you may not be excited anymore by the churn, but rather fed up.

[jack_riminton]

This is why the Rails community should be applauded in my book, for their dogged determination that we should keep it a “one person” framework. Yes it may not be as performant, type safe or flashy on the front end but my god it’s productive.

At my startup there are 7 devs who can all do tickets across the stack and as we grow I think it would be good if we could resist the pressure to silo and specialize

[ethagnawl]

> but my god it’s productive.

It really is. Regrettably, I've drifted away from it in large part because of client requirements for more "modern" and "maintainable" solutions (e.g. Python or Node; I'll take Python every time, thanks). Django comes very close in terms of productivity (and is better in some ways: auth, admin, etc.) but the Rails CLI, generators and community (not sure if this is still relevant) give it the edge.

The "recent" (last 10+ years) movement towards "lightweight" libraries (instead of frameworks) that require you to either reinvent the wheel, copy-and-paste or use some random "getting-started" template every time you start a new project is disheartening. As others have said above, I think it's partially resume-driven-development and people wanting to tinker (both of which I do appreciate).

Something which continues to surprise me is that there hasn't really been a "modern" successor to Rails. Granted, I haven't kept pace with developments in the Node/TypeScript world but, last time I looked, Sails was on the right track but wasn't very actively developed and I was shot down (in favor of Express spaghetti) when I suggested it. There's also a smattering of Rust web frameworks but none that quite fit the bill and come with all of the batteries and opinions included. I keep saying I'm going to do a Summer of Code project which attempts this but ... life.

[mike_hearn]

There are some Java frameworks that are kinda similar? Take a look at Micronaut for example. It has data access interfaces that use ActiveRecord's naming approach, controllers, view renderers, and a whole lot more on top.

[ethagnawl]

Thanks. I'll take a look. Didn't mean to overlook Java, I'm just less familiar with that environment. I've dabbled with some JVM languages and could also see Kotlin being a very nice option for such a framework. Though, to be fair, I know Java has come a long way in terms of expressivity, syntactic sugar, etc. (better performance is a given).

[GreenWatermelon]

There's no modern successor to Rails because Rails itself os still modern and very much up to date. The recent introduction of Stimulus allows to implement a SPA completely on rails (if they wanted) with the same simplicity present everywhere else in the framework.

[ethagnawl]

I don't agree with much of this but it's timely: https://zenstack.dev/blog/js-fullstack

[defen]

Many organizations would rather pay 3 people $120,000 each instead of paying 1 person $300,000 to do the same work, for a variety of reasons. Some good, some bad.

[evantbyrne]

Microservice architectures and the associated explosion in complexity on both ends are to blame. When it takes twice the time to build something, it is natural to hire twice as many developers. Increased complexity drives specialization.