Ask HN: How do I get out of learning loop

[mehwishh247]

I have a question that maybe some of you can relate to and I am hoping someone maybe able to answer it too.

I am a programmer. I code in Python. I also have a formal CS degree. But I was never able to land a job.

First it was some personal issue due which I couldn't relocate (My city does not have much IT jobs). Then, when I could relocate, I still couldn't secure a job. Reason: I cleared interviews and got job offers, but there was a huge salary disparity. Like more than 50% less salary than a male candidate was getting. I couldn't afford the relocation with those salaries. Before anyone ask, REMOTE wasn't an option in the country I live in before covid. It still isn't much of an option. I spent the next two years trying to get some job, a menial one, an IT support one, anything... But I couldn't. Reason: I had a gap from my education to my career entry.

SO, I started re-learning. I enrolled in courses. I got stuck in that loop. Because there was too much. It felt like I learnt nothing before.

And at this point, after four years of my graduation, I feel like I have no knowledge. My DS is rusty (I know them, and I keep learning them). But when I try to solve a simple problem, it takes me more hours then it should. My confidence is shattered at this point. I tried other careers, but I just cannot get myself to do them long term. I feel at home while coding. And it isn't like I am bad at it. I never was when I was a student. I was really good at it. I am good at Mathematics and all the technical subjects. They come naturally to me. But when it comes to a job, I don't know how to land a it.

I want to get out of this learning loop where I keep experiencing that I know nothing so I keep learning and I think I am good for it and then I apply for jobs and the loop repeats itself.

I could really use some advice. Anything. How to land a job, how to actually learn something (if I am missing something), or how to move on if it isn't meant for me and where to?

Sorry for the long post, sorry for emotional dump, and thank you in advance for any advice.

[AnonC]

Just a random thought which may or may not be possible for you to try — apply to The Recurse Center [1], ask for financial assistance and spend time there. Recurse makes money from jobs or job offers that its attendees may accept, and companies recruit from Recurse. Instead of trying to “boil the ocean” and studying everything again, you may be able to focus on something smaller but worthwhile in your job search.

[1]: https://www.recurse.com

[mehwishh247]

Thank you for your suggestion. I will actually look into it. I found other bootcamps like this before but they weren't affordable to me.

[shivc]

I can suggest 2 things to try, been in similar shoes as yours.

1. Try to look into open source contributions or building a project of your own, start to finish - a project that actually has some real world utility.

This will hopefully get you from a learner to builder mindset and help you showcase something strong and valuable in your portfolio as well.

2. Start attending networking meetups wherever you can - physical meetups and online, both count here.

A strong network is what will really help you land jobs or internships at least - don't shy away from internships or taking a salary cut for the short term.

Whatever salary you get today will not be the salary you will have in a year from now or 2 years from now.

Short term salary cut to get you in the job market is worth the trade - people who get job offers usually are the ones who are already in one(or do not need a new job right away)

The goal is to get you building valuable things and at the same time get in touch with people in the industry while also showcasing your skills as fast as possible - a higher salary will just hinder the speed - get started imo

[mehwishh247]

Thank you so much for commenting. TBH salary is not an issue as long as the job doesn't require relocation or covers my expenses to do the job. I cannot move to a city 5-10 hours away where I have no place to live and earn like less than $100 a month. Otherwise, I can even work unpaid.

[aynyc]

What country are you in? In the US, it's much easier to get a job while you have a job, sounds stupid but it's true. So I would take a reasonably relevant to CS/Dev/IT jobs and look for another while building your resume.

[mehwishh247]

A third world country in Asia. Look, I love my country, but the politics here have made this country's people miserable so.

Also, I tried to find a remote job in US but unfortunately for me, my experience comes as a hurdle. And tons of job need people working remotely but from their own countries.

[romerocarlos]

It's understandable that you're feeling stuck in a loop. Remember, you're not alone in this journey, many programmers face similar challenges. By focusing on your strengths, practicing your skills, and staying persistent, you can break out of the learning loop and achieve your career goals.

[mehwishh247]

Thank you. I cannot thank everyone commenting on this post enough. I really needed this support.

[sujayk_33]

It sounds like, you need a break from all this. Just Restart yourself and you'll see the change.

and also don't expect things

I don't even have a CS degree, I'm just a self-taught but then I kept trying and caught a break with an internship, it paid me more than $600 a month and I didn't even ask for it, they offered it generously.

[mehwishh247]

I was planning on this. Just didn't know how because of this loop. Money doesn't matter to me. It only matters when I actually have to spend for the job (like moving to a different city)

[aristofun]

> Like more than 50% less salary than a male candidate was getting

I wonder how do you know how much exactly new male candidates get for same role in same companies?

[mehwishh247]

A friend of mine's brother graduated the same year/cohort as I did. We graduated literally a month apart. He got the job right away at double the salary I was offered. That's how I know. We both live in the same city so his salary made it easy for him to relocate. The one that was offered to me couldn't even cover hostel expenses.

I know, this isn't an excuse. Salary doesn't matter to me as long as the job is remote or doesn't require relocation.

[aristofun]

How do you know this is because of your sex and not just different company, different position, better interview performance?

How many other examples did you have to come to the conclusion?

[mehwishh247]

I had class fellows who were really not good at coding during education. I am not saying they were not talented or in any way I was better than them. Just that during study, I saw them struggling with technical concepts and coding a lot.

They got hired within 6 months of graduation. I give it that they were living in a different city but that still doesn't explain the salary difference.

They guy I talked about earlier had almost the same grade, same interest in tech, and same graduation year as me. That's why I mentioned him and not others.

I do not have victim mentality. It is just a fact that the part of the world I live in, there is a salary disparity between the two genders. It so happened that I got a bit demotivated because of it.

[aristofun]

I’m sorry that this is the case in your country.

I could never find myself any examples of that in software industry in few countries I worked in. It always came down to difference in companies, interview performance, or even salary negotiation tactics.

[mehwishh247]

I know it's unfortunate, but I am okay with it. It is what it is. And we cannot change facts, so we accept them. It's just, I couldn't afford having those jobs and the difference rubbed it on my face. Thank you for your kind words. It means a lot.

[aristofun]

> different city but that still doesn't explain the salary difference

You mention city a lot.

But were all those cases within the same company?

This is much more important variable than the city.

[mehwishh247]

When I say city, it means one of the few cities which have like a hundred software houses (big and small) while my city has only 5 opened within last two years (didn't have a single one when I graduated). I applied to in those cities. I understand they wouldn't pay more to a resource that had to relocate. I understand that businesses like to have resources that aren't burden (hence they would prefer someone in the same city). But this doesn't account the difference. Only my skills should have mattered.

[stathmarxis]

1)Thinking about what is really important for your business right now 2)Take small focussed learning steps towards this3) Implement this learning in order to actually make progress 4)Make yourself accountable

[mehwishh247]

I really want to actually make progress in my career, and I want to make myself accountable for it too. I am just on the HOW part of it all. I tried asking people what they did to get a job (to understand what I was doing wrong), I asked people what they learned and how they did it (actual implementation of what they studied) but people are busy and didn't get much answers from LinkedIn network. So here I am again asking the same questions!

[meiraleal]

So in retrospect your best option would have been accepting that job. From there you would have had a way easier time getting a better opportunity. Don't let another opportunity like that pass by.

Another thing I'd recommend is to start a project and publish it by yourself while you are looking for a job. You can then claim that you've been working on it for some time, that's a valid working experience, successfully or not

[mehwishh247]

Thank you for commenting. I am thinking about creating an automated scraping and then storing result in Google sheets. Something along the lines... But I feel like I don't know how to do it. I guess I just have a fear of failure. I work better in a guided environment and by guided, I mean for only one single practice or project, I just needed someone to guide me through the stuff.

But you're right, I really need to do it myself. Nobody can help me but me.

[jventura]

Why don’t you try to use chatGPT to help you? Ask it how you can start with your idea and keep iterating your questions until it gives you a good way for you to start..

[mehwishh247]

I did actually. Not the code but how to proceed. As in a senior might guide a junior developer at job. But it forgets what we were doing within 24 hours because I am using Snapchat's AI (which is ChatGPT)

[dyingkneepad]

> My DS is rusty

What is DS?

[kingkongjaffa]

Data Structures.

[runjake]

"Developer skills", perhaps? That's my guess.

Edit: I have a really hard time understanding OP's questions, so here's an AI summary:

- Struggles to land a job despite being a programmer with a formal CS degree.

- Faced challenges with relocation and salary discrepancies, especially compared to male candidates.

- Difficulty securing a job due to gap between education and career entry.

- Feels stuck in a learning loop, lacking confidence and struggling with technical problem-solving.

- Seeks advice on how to land a job, improve learning process, or consider alternative career paths.

[mehwishh247]

Yes, pretty much. And I apologize for not writing clearly. English isn't my first language. This is why I wrote a hard-to-understand context. Also, I was crying at the time, so my head wasn't in the write place, I guess.

[runjake]

- Create a portfolio of projects on Github.

- Network with lots of other people locally and online. Try to be helpful and, I hate this term but, "provide value" to others.

- Potentially take on small gigs if that's your thing. If not locally, then fiverr.com or whatever the current hotness is for freelancing.

- Work on your soft skills. It's really hard to follow what you've written. Work on communicating more simply.

- The bar for entry is so low, if my area is indication. If you can write simple code on your own, without copy/pasting, you're already ahead of a small but decent chunk of professional programmers.

- Good luck, you can do it.

[mehwishh247]

Thank you so, so much for this. For all the suggestions. I will start following them hopefully without being discouraged again. And thank you for the suggestion about communication!

[a2code]

> I want to get out of this learning loop where I keep experiencing that I know nothing so I keep learning and I think I am good for it and then I apply for jobs and the loop repeats itself.

So? Just stop learning. Close that book, video, course. Go make something people want. Or you want. What would you like to make?

[mehwishh247]

When I was about to graduate, I wanted to make an app for mute people to talk through their phone (Not tons of people know SL here) but my professor curbed the idea. Afterwards I didn't know where to start, and this is why I wanted to do a job so I could learn how real-life projects and things work.

But you are right, I need to get ahead my fear of failure.

[a2code]

Making something helps to get hired. Not only is it a show of expertise, but also an expression of your unique personality. What is more, I asked what you want to make right now. Even people afraid of failure make things.

[mehwishh247]

If I am being honest, a living. No project comes to my mind at all. Just that I want to work. I love coding, can spend hours on it. If someone ask me to make something, I am all up for it. But nothing comes to my mind on my own. It's just plain numb at this point. A project that I have started working on is a scraper that will have Google Sheets integration and then I will use it make insights + some other plans of scaling this project.