[iLemming]

While Clojure emphasizes lazy persistent sequences, it still uses lists as a primary data structure and supports list processing. The new data structures are extensions, not replacements, designed to address specific application needs more effectively.

Many classical Lisp implementations also compile code. Compilation does not preclude a language from being a Lisp. Clojure continues the use of s-expressions for code and data representation. Clojure provides a REPL, a staple of Lisp environments.

Clojure retains the homoiconic nature of Lisp. Macros in Clojure very much akin to those in traditional Lisps.

Clojure’s design choices are about extending Lisp principles to solve modern software engineering challenges. Rich Hickey wasn't like: "Lispers were all wrong..." He chose to build the language on top of Lisp principles, and these principles are evident, unmistakably clear and can be seen with a naked eye.

I'm honestly getting worn out by this debate. You're delving into the minutiae of taxonomy, like whether early hominids can be classified as humans, and it's just exhausting. I've told you before, and I'll tell you again — unless someone truly eminent persuades Rich and he eventually concedes, saying: "Yes, Clojure in reality ain't no Lisp..." only then will I alter my position. Until that time, I will continue to call it a Lisp, regard it as a Lisp, and talk about it as a Lisp. The only thing you can do to change my opinion - is to persuade Rich to change his.

[lispm]

You are on the surface. I'm talking about a computing paradigm defined by LISP. A foundational model at the core of the language, enabling us to understand how the List Processor actually works.

LISP has dialects which are not homoiconic, where programs are not written as s-expressions, ... But the core is the same: a specific List Processor. McCarthy himself did not want to write programs as s-expressions. He defined M-Expressions, where S-Expressions were only used for the data.

Check the book "Anatomy of LISP", which is a classic. All the code in the book is written in M-Expressions. Now, Racket gets a new syntax (-> Rhombus). But the language core mechanisms are still there. I'm a fan of the s-expression syntax, but I've also heard&read from many people (incl. McCarthy), that THEY preferred a different syntax. I've seen Apple defining Dylan (Dynamic Language) with an s-expression syntax and then changing the language to a different syntax for broader adoption. You (and me) think it is essential. McCarthy and others thought that it was the wrong syntax for getting wider adoption.

Btw., personally, I don't care that much what Rich Hickey says. I can think for myself.

[kazinator]

It is fallacious to suggest that in order to have generic iteration that supports non-list objects, we must abandon the classic list processing functions and give them alternative names and behaviors.

In the TXR Lisp dialect, classic functions like mapcar iterate over nonlists, without losing a shred of backward compatibility over lists.

For instance, we can iterate starting from an integer, in parallel with iterating over a list:

  1> (mapcar 'cons '(a b c) 0)
  ((a . 0) (b . 1) (c . 2))

What we do is pattern the iteration abstraction after the car/cdr model, so that car/cdr iteration falls out as a straightforward special case.

To do this we define an iteration API with four operations:

  iter-begin: construct the iterator from the sequence object
  iter-more: test the iterator whether it has more elements
  iter-item: if iter-more tested true, get the first item
  iter-step: calculate iterator of rest of sequence

iter-step may be functional or destructive, so the caller must capture the new iterator returned as a value and must stop using the old one.

Integer:

  1> (iter-begin 0)   ;; identity
  0
  2> (iter-more 0)    ;; true function: ignores argument, returns t.
  t
  3> (iter-item 0)    ;; identity
  0
  4> (iter-step 0)    ;; successor function
  1

String:

  5> (iter-begin "abc")   ;; opaque iterator returned
  #<seq-iter: a0bef50>
  6> (iter-more *5)
  t
  7> (iter-item *5)
  #\a
  8> (iter-step *5)       ;; destructively stepped
  #<seq-iter: a0bef50>
  9> (iter-item *8)       ;; let's refer to *8 anyway
  #\b

List:

  10> (iter-begin '(1 2 3))   ;; identity, like in integer case
  (1 2 3)
  11> (iter-more '(1 2 3))    ;; not-equal-to-nil test
  t
  12> (iter-item '(1 2 3))    ;; car
  1
  13> (iter-step '(1 2 3))    ;; cdr with check
  (2 3)
  14> (iter-step '(1 . 2))    ;; demo of check
  ** iter-step: 2 is not a cons

Without the check in (iter-step '(1 . 2)) we would get 2, and that would then iterate through 2, 3, 4, ...

[kazinator]

> Rich Hickey wasn't like: "Lispers were all wrong..."

Actually, yes he was.

[iLemming]

Citation?