[watermelon0]

Every time I see something like this, I'm a bit sad, that we live in a world where tablets (especially iPad M4) have comparable performance to most laptops, but we still cannot run a general purpose OS (macOS/Linux/Windows) on them.

Tablets are surely capable of running VSCode, Docker, VMs, etc. locally, and from UX standpoint, VSCode is basically Chromium, so experience would be the same if these tools ran directly on device.

[infotainment]

Agreed; Apple’s restrictions on the iPad should be illegal, IMO.

It’s ridiculous how crippled they are, and all in the name of making sure people feel compelled to also buy a laptop.

[theshrike79]

I agree, but we should also make restrictions on smart TVs and gaming consoles illegal too.

Both the Xbox and PS5 are 100% commodity hardware, not being able to run our own software on it is a really weird limitation. One that people even on HN have accepted while simultaneously ragging on Apple's "walled garden".

[pjmlp]

Actually that is not the case with XBox, you can have your own applications there without rooting it.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/xbox-apps/devk...

[ach9l]

And you can say "Actually that is not the case with iPad, you can have your own applications there without rooting it." have you heard of Xcode? still... you are missing the point, you can't even use an iPad to properly code for iPad

[codetrotter]

But can you use the Xbox itself to locally develop and run your own software? Or do you still need to use another computer or an online service via web browser?

[BaculumMeumEst]

That is the exactly the same weak, crippled, sandboxed bullshit that Apple gives you for your iPad. OP wants to run an OS on these devices, not that.

[zakki]

Are you going to bring your Smart TV and PS5 for VSCoding anywhere and anytime?

[codetrotter]

There are many people who can’t afford to buy both a computer and a PS5 and some of them choose to buy PS5. Would be nice to let those people use the PS5 hardware for what it is really capable of, including being able to run a desktop OS on it.

[vundercind]

The number of people who can so barely afford a PS5 that they can’t also afford a computer (these are a hell of a lot cheaper than a PS5), but are willing to screw with their PS5 in ways likely to mess it up in one way or another (if only making gaming impossible without further tinkering) is approximately zero.

[rezonant]

If you just changed "but" to "and" you'd get your point across with less a sense of whataboutism.

Yes, all platforms should be free. Personally it feels like devices that are marketed as general purpose have a higher expectation that people can use them for general purposes, but it is definitely true that any device you purchase should allow you to run whatever software you want on it.

[rfoo]

Yeah, that's why I refuse to buy PS5, iPhone and iPad.

I have a Switch though, thanks to Nintendo's incompetency on locking it down.

[steve1977]

But you know these restrictions when you buy the device. Same with the Apple ecosystem. So why make it illegal?

[franga2000]

Because it's an artificial limitation to make the company more money, at the expense of customer experience and the environment (yes, locked-down hardware is also a sustainability issue!).

Ideally, companies would exist to serve the public and so such selfish anti-consumer behaviour would be illegal. Unfortunately, they don't and current law seems to affirm that.

[mosselman]

I’d also like to be able to run anything on an iPad. But I know I can’t so I don’t buy it.

I find this notion that companies should do what we want ridiculous. You know the features and capabilities upfront or you can at least and then you can decide to buy or not.

[franga2000]

There are many problems with the "just don't buy it" argument. Mainly, that often times, the alternatives have huge unrelated down-sides. Apple makes the best tablet hardware by a large margin, but it's totally locked down. If I want a good tablet, I have bo real alternatives.

[steve1977]

> I find this notion that companies should do what we want ridiculous.

The thing is, we actually have a vote in this by buying or not buying their products. So apparently, too many people are content enough with what Apple (for example) is doing.

[matwood]

> Ideally, companies would exist to serve the public and so such selfish anti-consumer behaviour would be illegal.

Given that iPads are the most sold tablets in the market, I would argue that Apple did serve the public.

[_factor]

Temporarily at best. If I invent fire and lock it down so that only my grill can use it, while also releasing feel good propaganda to convince people that it is the only way fire works, yes it’s more beneficial than not for a time. As society grows around the concept, the artificial limitations begin hindering the elevated stage more than helping.

These companies have convinced unwitting masses that this is in their long-term best interests. I assure you it is not. It is about being controlled, and the invisible limitations placed on an individual when they grow to love their chains.

[steve1977]

> Ideally, companies would exist to serve the public

That would not be "companies" in the common sense anymore, but rather something like the East German "Volkseigener Betrieb" or the Russian "design bureaus". Which is something worth considering probably, but then you'd need larger changes, not just some laws that prohibit companies artificial limitations like this.

[euroderf]

> Because it's an artificial limitation to make the company more money

Market Segmentation 101.

Even back in VCR days the el-cheapos would let you set (say) 4 recordings, the mid-range 8, and the high-end 16. All the manufacturers did was tie down pins.

Hobbled hardware is a (dis)honorable tradition in tech.

[threeseed]

But the problem is that Apple doesn't want the iPad to be a regular computer.

That's the entire value proposition of the device.

And every advanced, niche feature they add dilutes this.

[nox101]

Because it's slowing killing the the environment for kids to learn. Parents give kids an iPad, they don't give them a notebook. Kid has hands tied for really exploring programming.

I'd be willing to bet if the same restrictions were in place in the 80s and 90s that 30-50% of the people who are programmers today wouldn't be programmers because they'd never have gotten started.

[threeseed]

There are many excellent web based programming environments that cater for beginners.

As someone who was learning how to develop in the 80s your comment is hilariously ridiculous. It is 1000x easier to learn now with the wealth of tooling, content, AI assistants etc than it was for me trying to learn C++ on a Mac Plus with no internet.

[matwood]

There is Swift Playgrounds, but if you're talking more about general purpose programming - sure. But, I don't think it changes anything. As devices have entered all aspects of our life, the vast majority want to use them as an appliance to take and edit pictures/video, draw, communicate, and play games. To say it's killing the environment for kids to learn feels a bit myopic by implying programming is the only way to learn.

[steve1977]

> Because it's slowing killing the the environment for kids to learn. Parents give kids an iPad, they don't give them a notebook.

That's a fair point. I think we need a law which makes it illegal for parents to give kids an iPad and not a notebook.

[scarface_74]

In the 80s and 90s there were locked down devices - game consoles - and computers.

[fragmede]

Because we want to. Of course the political capital of bunch of nerds isn't enough to make it happen but while the reasoning is different, I can't buy a new car that I can register without seatbelts, so the concept of making things illegal to buy is not entirely foreign. Of course, those are for safety, but I also can't buy a car that won't do at least 55 for the freeway unless I want a golf cart, so suitability for purpose is another concept. We'd just have to define computer in a legal sense, and then categorize the iPad as a computer, and finally make it a requirement that you can run your own code on computers. Of course, carrots are better than sticks, so maybe put a tax on all non-computer electronics, and a rebate for computers. All just to be able to run my own code on an ipad. Which, you can actually do with Pythonista. There's a small ecosystem of apps using that, as well as the official Shortcuts app, which I'd call programming. it's not Xcode on an iPad (though I'm sure there's a lucky engineer at Apple that has one that can do that, but then doesn't get to have any fun with it), and it's not really close either.

[steve1977]

> Because we want to.

Who is "we"? Apparently not enough people want this.

> I can't buy a new car that I can register without seatbelts, so the concept of making things illegal to buy is not entirely foreign.

That's a strawman argument. Not having cars without seatbelts has safety implications. A better analogy would be cars which don't allow you to replace the built-in car stereo for example.

> so maybe put a tax on all non-computer electronics, and a rebate for computers. All just to be able to run my own code on an ipad. Which, you can actually do with Pythonista.

Then maybe we should also have a tax for computers that run Python, because it's so energy inefficient. Only make the ones tax-free that only allow C++ and assembly language.

[fragmede]

> Who is "we"

Everybody who wants Xcode on iPads to happen. If you do not want such a thing, I am not talking for you. There may be dozens of us and we don't have the political clout to make it happen, but maybe we can agree that something has been lost here.

Is it still a straw man argument when I explicitly point out that I know it's not the same thing, twice, with the phrases "while the reasoning is different" and "Of course, those are for safety"?

As far as taxing Python for energy inefficiency goes, If it means violating Wirth's Law, I can't say that I'd be entirely against it in the hypothetical because we both know that's never going to happen. It takes longer to open some apps on my iPhone that's a million times faster (though, to be fair, also does a million more things) than it took to open vi on a Linux box in console mode (no X) in the previous century.

[jimbokun]

Depends on your views about anti-trust applied to the phone and tablet markets.

The Biden administration opened a wide ranging anti-trust suit against Apple. Will see what comes of it.

[can16358p]

I get your point, especially given the enormous power of the hardware and capabilities, but there is no surprise here: their hardware, their software, and you know what you are buying (it's not like it was open then it was remotely locked down) so everyone agreed at the time of purchase.

What part of this can be made illegal?

[nicoburns]

Anything can be made illegal. I agree it's tricky to create a general rule here. My suggestion would be to require bootloaders to be unlocked such that custom operating systems can be installed on it (and yes this could apply to smart TVs, games consoles, etc too).

That wouldn't get it us macOS, but it would get us Linux and incentivise Apple to provide macOS too.

[arijun]

My fear is that such a regulation would end up being a net negative for the consumer. Apple would protect MacBook sales in other ways, e.g. crippling iPad hardware. Genuine question: if it was a net negative, would that still be worth it in your eyes?

[unsupp0rted]

Companies should be able to make whatever device they want. I use iPhone/iPad when I want to be fairly confident that nobody's actively screenshotting my every move.

[DaSHacka]

Being able to install any OS onto your hardware would let you avoid running an OS that screenshots your every move in the first place

[unsupp0rted]

The more doors you open intentionally, the more doors become open unintentionally.

If I wanted a device that allows installation of any OS, I would buy one.

Companies like “Honor” are already doing a good job of cloning Apple’s UX. Go right ahead… nobody’s stopping manufacturers from making fully hackable phones.

[scarface_74]

So should it also be illegal for game consoles not to run a general purpose OS? The Apple displays also run a version of iOS, should it also be illegal for them not to run full versions of iOS?

I have some sympathy for the argument about side loading, the inability to have alternate app stores etc and the things that the EU is addressing haphardly.

But saying the government should mandate that Apple must support MacOS on iPads is a bridge too far.

[steve1977]

> Every time I see something like this, I'm a bit sad, that we live in a world where tablets (especially iPad M4) have comparable performance to most laptops, but we still cannot run a general purpose OS (macOS/Linux/Windows) on them.

Sad Surface Pro noises…

[kkapelon]

I use a Surface Pro with VScode and it works the same as a desktop.

Since it is so light, I now take it with me at conferences/vacation instead of a full laptop.

I have given full presentations on stage that include a live demo with VScode and a local K8s cluster.

It just works.

[pjmlp]

Many devs are also to blame, there are enough hybrid laptops around to pick from, so basically they are voting with their wallet validating that this kind of workarounds are acceptable.

[sebtron]

Or even smartphone-sized devices (not saying "smartphone" because of the expectations for those in terms of battery life and telephony). With keyboard in my backpack I could have a legit pocket-size general purpose computer.

I am keeping an eye on Starlabs new intel-based linux tablet [1], I am curious what the reviews will be like once it finally ships.

[1] https://starlabs.systems/pages/starlite

[enceladus06]

The iPhone 15 pro could be a general purpose computer, but Apple doesn’t want that.

Imagine plugging your phone into a Lightning dock and then it is running full macOS or Ubuntu in a vm, with Bluetooth keyboard and mouse support.

This is possible from a hardware perspective (look at Samsung dex), and would actually bring innovation to the smartphone market, but we allow Apple/google/friends to lock down our hardware bc of profits.

[nicoburns]

It boggles my mind that Apple don't release an iPad that runs macOS. It would sell like hotcakes. And with the M series chips they have already developed the technology to have multiple securely segregated OS's on the same device (so they could have it run iPad OS too if they wanted to).

[xnyan]

The answer seems obvious to me, ipad running macos would then compete with the mac. It’s the same reason apple does not release a laptop with a touch screen.

[skydhash]

MacOS on touchscreen is not that great (think graphics tablet). So you’ll still have to bring a keyboard and a mouse/trackpad everywhere.

I’d rather see they make it more convenient to run your own software. It’s either 99 usd a year or 7 days installation.

[nicoburns]

They already sell a case with a keyboard/touchpad

[alexpc201]

Apple sees the iPads as art creation devices. You may well argue coding is an art, but not for Apple.

[goosedragons]

This is baloney. Here's a literal quote from their iPad Air "Why iPad" [0] page, "iPad is so versatile, it’s more than up to any task." They market them as do anything devices with art as a option. Hell that same page even talks about building your coding skills in Swift Playground although who knows what you're supposed to do when you advance beyond that level? I guess in Apple's mind buy a Mac?

https://www.apple.com/ipad-air/why-ipad/

And of course, they call out the iconic, but complete bullshit, "there's an app for that" with many tasks not in fact having an app for that.

[madeofpalk]

The M4 iPad Pro is the fastest computer Apple sells right now.

[black3r]

Only if all you care about is single core performance. Macbooks with M3 Pro and M3 Max beat M4 in multi-core performance because they have more cores.

[cultofmetatron]

I'm praying the next generation of arm laptops running windows arm won't have locked own bootloaders preventing me from installing linux.

[prmoustache]

Can't UTM allow you to do just that albeit in a VM?

[lxgr]

Not in the App Store, and I believe on recent iOS versions not even with reasonable performance (due to a lack of JIT and/or hardware virtualization support, I believe).

Even if it’s possible, the point is that iPad OS really feels like it’s intentionally holding back the power user experience for the sake of being more accessible to new users in a way that e.g. macOS doesn’t.

[prmoustache]

From what I understand it is in AltStore which is installable without another device in UE and still installable running AltServer on a separate computer.

Annoying I understand. But fairly easy to anyone motivated to get it.

As for the performance they say:

"The lack of hardware virtualization on Apple A-chips means that even for ARM code we must re-compile it with JIT. Therefore performance would never reach the levels possible with KVM. There is also no support for GPU virtualization so that means no DirectX or OpenGL. This makes most modern games non-playable."

I guess it would be at least good enough to run an IDE, git and have terminal access provided any serious compilation is done remotely and not locally. And might even be good enough to run some lightweight containers.

EDIT: seeing that on ios 14 devices it needs to be jailbroken, so I guess it is best used on "obsolete" models.

[tannerellen]

The Altstore they are referring to is the sideload version, not the EU store that was just released. This requires a computer to install the IPA file. Once you install UTM using this sideloading method the only way to activate JIT to make UTM useable in any meaningful way is to be on the same local network as a computer with SideJitServer installed and running. Then you can use an emulated OS and drain your battery super fast.

Long story short UTM is not currently a solution. Apple either needs to allow JIT for all apps or SideJitServer needs to do the impossible and figure out a way to activate over a remote connection.

[More-nitors]

this

people will definitely pay a big premium to get:

a surfacebook with M4 chip with macOS

[bartekrutkowski]

While not exactly the same, it will be close enough for Apple not to do it - it's called MacBook Air and it will be out with M4 soon enough (I guess).

Back in they day they had 11" MacBook line and I loved it, wish they'd bring it back.

[diffeomorphism]

I guess with the dell xps 13 having tandem oled now, this might arrive eventually. However, right now the screens are big differentiators between the ipad pro and macbook air.