[hnick]

I feel like my grasp of language allows some very complex thoughts, but I often wonder if it is limiting. I seem nearly unable to think without forming phrases in my head, and even if I anticipate the conclusion I feel the need to go through the whole sentence. I know there are people with all their senses intact without any internal monologue, but mine is very much in charge. Rigorous exercise or flow state seems able to quiet it for a bit.

[9dev]

> I seem nearly unable to think without forming phrases in my head, and even if I anticipate the conclusion I feel the need to go through the whole sentence.

I try this ever so often and can’t get a hold of it. It feels like I know what the final sentence will be, like it’s shape, in a way, before my narrator has read it, but he needs to read it for the meaning to materialise, to commit to my reasoning state. Every time I think just how much faster I would be thinking if I could get rid of the monologue somehow.

And then I notice that thinking happens very fast, and that the perceived speaking speed of the narrator probably doesn’t correlate with the time it would take me to actually spell things out loud, my brain only pretends it’s way slower than the actual thought process.

[essentia0]

It's not growing, it's cutting and amplifying that happens on this step. Without it there is less certainty the attention will go the right way. When it is fully pronounced- as if you heard it with your ears - it sort of ripples through your brain, like a physical sensation, echoing for some time. Pulling it out word by word feels natural so You think it was already there, but The thought is not "activated" full strength until you walk it fully with attention, theres only a vague shape, a direction, broad and uncertain. Without it you get faster less lasting thoughts that won't chain well to form a cohesive picture. less sharpness, less resolution, a kind of intuition, maybe it is intuition. You probably get those sometimes, a complex idea that is hard to verbalise, but you can sense it, and you are probably aware how ephemeral they are if you dont stop to give them all your attention. You already know how to think like that, it just doesn't register that you are doing it because it doesn't "echo", you still walk them to remember them

[raffraffraff]

I also find it astonishing that I can feel like I had an entire sentence in my head without any of the words, and fluidly produce all of the words as I say them, without having to search for them or consciously line them up. They're just there, one after the other, like tokens waiting to be picked up. (LLM anyone?) I don't even think that my conscious brain knows exactly which words are going to pop out, say 5 words on. It seems to magically find each word as I speak, without having to pause or rebuffer.

I don't think that language is slowing me down. I actually think that my brain is full of shit and needs to run thoughts through checkers (lint, syntax, logic, fact). I think it makes the language center of our brains all the more magical. As you say, it all happens so fast, and yet it assembles and sanity-checks those raw thoughts as you crystalise them into words.

How many times have I started explaining something, only to realise midway through that I'm taking crap, or that I'm extremely fuzzy on some important detail. Or maybe I infer some important new fact or make some new connection for the first time, while talking about it?

Dogs have thoughts... but we can speak. And every time there's been an innovation in the storage, retrieval or communication of language (not raw thoughts), we've had a gigantic evolutionary leap forward. Isaac Newton was a genius. But when he took up the challenge of explaining the motion of the planets, I bet that not even he knew what he was going to end up with at the end, and I bet that he realised, discovered or rained out a whole bunch of things in the writing of it.

Something else I've wondered. How come my brain holds a million different facts, records of! historical interactions with others, and a pretty decent track of time (like, I know the time, day, month and year and what I did-or-didn't do yesterday), but my dreams are total gibberish? Like I was in a hotel lobby last night with a bunch of people I don't know, realised I'm wasn't wearing any pants, then paniced because my phone was in my pants, how would I call my wife? So I turn to my (deceased) sister and asked which room I'm staying in... If my brain is so good, how come it does crap like that when the conscious bit is switched off?

I would never assume that the data inside my brain, or the subconscious babble that counts for thought, adds up to a genius that is hindered by some clunky language. Very much the opposite.

Side note: all of this is the basis for my extremely strong view that freedom of speech is an absolute necessity for continued prosperity, science, democracy etc. If people are unable to turn their ideas into concrete language, and to do this together as a group, without fear, then they are unable to reason things out properly and make good decisions. I only feel like adding that because within my lifetime I have seen an erosion of the importance of that freedom, to the point where it's no longer possible to discuss mundane, everyday things, or to point out some obvious truth.

[ben_w]

> Side note: all of this is the basis for my extremely strong view that freedom of speech is an absolute necessity for continued prosperity, science, democracy etc. If people are unable to turn their ideas into concrete language, and to do this together as a group, without fear, then they are unable to reason things out properly and make good decisions. I only feel like adding that because within my lifetime I have seen an erosion of the importance of that freedom, to the point where it's no longer possible to discuss mundane, everyday things, or to point out some obvious truth.

A fun tangent :)

I think "freedom of speech" is perhaps the wrong place to describe the line: if everyone used words to try to learn about the world, to test their models against reality, this would be flawless.

But that does not fully describe us: we are social creatures, we use language not only to scout, but to fight; and freedom of speech also means freedom for rhetoric. It's cliché to criticise ethos these days, to say that arguments don't depend on the qualifications of one making them. Logos is the one I think you're interested in, based on what you wrote here. Pathos is the one I fear, because I know it works and it makes people believe falsely.

Still, I don't know how to actually get to just "freedom of logos". Some pathos may be necessary to avoid accidentally prohibiting some logos. Some pathos may be simply unavoidable, as the reason to care in the first place (see explanations of why "straw Vulcans" are made of straw: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawVulcan).

[Anotheroneagain]

It isn't straw Vulcans, but a completely real thing.

Highly dimensional problems can only be solved through dimensionality reduction, you extract some key features that encompass the problem, get something that at least partially works, and eventually get to the actual solution, even for problems that would be too complex and multifaceted to approach analytically.

[hnick]

> fluidly produce all of the words as I say them

It's been a few days but I was thinking about this, and really - are we sure?

Deja vu exists, and as I understand is a bit of a processing issue where something we only just did seems to have happened a little while ago. As I understand it, our brain is in the habit of rewriting timelines a bit to have things make sense, and this could be another case of that.

[throwaway2037]

    > within my lifetime I have seen an erosion of the importance of that freedom

Can you provide some concrete examples?

[qup]

Social media silencing thoughts during COVID-19 that later to turn out to be right. And mostly nobody is very mad about views being silenced all over the internet.

That's the first thing that sprung to my mind.

[hnick]

Right or wrong, people talking their way around around keywords during the pandemic, when not even discussing the pandemic, was weird. They were scared of the YouTube algorithm falsely identifying them and harming their livelihood so would not even say things like "virus" in a video game or movie review.

Then you have the whole trend on various platforms with terms like "unalive" as a replacement for kill/suicide, or censoring words like "r*pe" or (even worse to me) "grape". Some of this is to dodge the algorithms too, but I've seen it said it's to also avoid triggers - which seems to defeat the purpose, it makes it hard to filter and eventually people learn and they become triggers anyway.

So I do see a definite chilling effect on discourse based on community standards and algorithms, even if it's not Government lead. There are two subs for my country on Reddit I check occasionally, one is heavily moderated and very predictable in how a comment will be received, while I feel the other has a more honest reflection of the widespread population. I don't particularly like the racists that share their thoughts, but on the balance of things I'm not sure it's best to lock them out completely. Twenty years ago the internet was less sanitised, but it also felt less hostile on a personal level, and more honest overall. Talking to discuss, not to score points.

[frabcus]

Yes - to me the speech feels more like a forcing layer that drives thought. The actual thought is a recurrent neural network underneath. Nearest I have of conscious access to itis non verbal awareness of complex concepts.

[pests]

This reminds me of some experiment (that I will never be able to find again) that was basically having people count in their head while doing something else, say reading.

Some people were very good at it, others horrible.

One revealed the method they were using - they didn't count audibly, they visualized a ticker tape moving across their vision with numbers increasing. Or say a rotating scale with the numbers rotating. This let them read or internal monologue as the senses are now separate.

I tried to practice for a bit, still impossible to do without thinking about it. Kind of like how people default to counting money in their native way.

[hnick]

That's interesting. I read your comment in my head while counting and seemed able to keep up, but something more complex might be hard, such as reading out loud.

On another tangent, I've been trying Ritalin after speaking to a doctor. The first thing I noticed when I took it was that it became very difficult to hold multiple trains of thought at the same time. My typical routine (coping mechanism) was to work and have YouTube playing and a little attention on each, because this stopped me getting bored. But it wasn't long before I realised I simply could not hear the videos. It was a strange feeling but nice. A little similar to what you describe in how abilities vary.

[pests]

These questions keep me up at night. That we only get to experience though our own senses.

I pretty much can only pay attention to one thing at a time. I've tried to watch movies or YouTube while coding or other things on my PC but I end up realizing I wasn't paying attention at all so now I don't even try.

[ahazred8ta]

When most people focus on one thing, the active part of the brain will actually 'recruit' neighboring parts (which normally do other things) to help with the main activity. That recruitment may not happen with certain people when they're not on Ritalin. (I am not a neurobiologist)

I'm the other way. I can ignore people talking, but when a coworker has the radio on and the spoken words are faint enough or muddled enough that they're hard to make out, I lose focus on what I'm trying to do because the 'listen to words' part of my brain is trying really hard to figure out what's being said, and pulls in extra brainpower to do it.

[hnick]

It really was eye opening how much difference a small 10mg dose made, and the structures of the modern world made a whole lot more sense with the knowledge that maybe a lot of people are just like this, all the time. I had experienced focus before but it was almost always what people call "hyperfocus" which is a more extreme locking out of the world. I kept notes for my appointment in 3 months since I just noticed so many little things I'd be sure to forget and it'll be fun to review those.

[foodevl]

> This reminds me of some experiment (that I will never be able to find again)

That was from Richard Feynman.

[pests]

Ah yes! That would totally line up. Guessing from his Surely You're Joking book.

Apologies to any if I butchered the story or experiment, been awhile.

[frabcus]

It's definitely in the excellent Feynman BBC series "Fun to imagine"

[pests]

I've never watched but I'll have to check it out! Must be a common story he tells haha.

[StefanBatory]

I have been learning English for close to ~18 years by now, if you count primary school. To this day I can't really count in English unless I force myself to.

[texuf]

This is from Surely You’re Joking

[martindbp]

Is this the norm? I can have an internal dialog but I mainly visualize things, I'd say that 90% of my thinking is visual. I'm not even sure how you'd solve, for instance, an algorithmic problem without visualizing the process. Maybe this is why I feel like a slower thinker than most peers, answers just seem to come them while I have to visualize things first. In college I'd generally take longer than the fast smart people but end up doing slightly better in the end, which always puzzled me. I have terrible memory for facts though.

[frabcus]

The answer is that it is hugely variable between people!

Hurlburt has great research on this using Descriptive Experience Sampling.

Some people mainly use images, others mainly speech, others mainly emotion etc. And many more use a varied mix.

Also the way each modality of thought is used is hugely variable - exactly what people see and with what quality or how precisely they feel emotional in their body etc.

To me it explains a huge amount of how different people are good at different skills.

I've a podcast on this topic ("Imagine an apple") if you're interested in more.

[martindbp]

Thanks, I'll check it out, it's a fascinating topic and can probably teach us how we can make AI think (or how it does think).

[phito]

You can visualize an algorithm?? Makes no sense to me. To me, when thinking about an algorithm, it's more navigating the data flow. Following connections between concepts. No words nor visuals.

[qup]

I think I navigate the data flow visually. Or semi-visually. In my mind's eye, usually, but sometimes I put it on paper.

[martindbp]

Yeah, most things lend themselves to visualizing, but even things that don't I have to visualize something, the answer doesn't just come to me unless I have something to look at if that makes sense.

Let me ask, when you decide what to eat for dinner, how do you arrive at the answer? I visualize what's in the fridge, what I can cook with the ingredients. Or if I want to eat out I visualize our neighborhood like Google Maps and look around at the different options.

When I'm solving an algorithmic problem I visualize the data, spatially if possible otherwise just as text, lists or vectors. It's like I'm using a notebook but it's faster and a bit more fuzzy.

[hnick]

It's not 100% for me but just the vast majority. I do visualise things that are almost purely spacial like geometry or recalling how to do an exercise. Though from what I've read, even this is news to some people who express surprise that "mind's eye" is a little more literal than they assumed. I'm pretty good at remembering facts and trivia but not so much actual life experiences, not sure if that's related.

[Aerroon]

I can visualize algorithms but I have to do so deliberately. Unlike the parent poster I don't always think in internal monologues either.

Sometimes it's a keyword/concept thing where I'll think of the main items and I get a feeling that I know how to fill in the blanks. I haven't actually visualized or verbalized what would fill those blanks though (and sometimes the feeling is wrong).

I think pretty much all of the senses can be used to do some form of thinking. I can imagine songs in my head, touch, feelings etc. Rarely are they useful for problem solving though, but some of these are nice for falling asleep in unknown environments.

Oh and then there's the thinking where nothing seems to happen. I stare at a piece of paper and after a while I know what to do next. How did I arrive at that conclusion? I don't know, but it definitely wasn't verbal, visual, aural or anything else. This tends to not solve complex problems like math, but it basically tells me what I should do to try to solve it (usually verbal or visual).

[ben_w]

I have an "inner voice" which "wants" to turn my word-shaped-thoughts into an inner audio stream, and "gets annoyed" if, upon "my" realisation that I've already got the entire sentence, I can save time by not "reading" it "aloud".

(All those scare quotes because this is not at all literal, just how it feels from the inside).

Interestingly, when I'm in this state (the thought has to already exist) I can let my fingers type it out for me while I'm paying attention to something else entirely — but I can't simultaneously read while listening to someone talk.

[bamboozled]

You might enjoy this Alan watts talk called: the limits of language https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZZPLbi2SD4

[ooterness]

The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis:

"The idea of linguistic relativity, known also as the Whorf hypothesis, the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis (/səˌpɪər ˈhwɔːrf/ sə-PEER WHORF), or Whorfianism, is a principle suggesting that the structure of a language influences its speakers' worldview or cognition, and thus individuals' languages determine or influence their perceptions of the world."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity