[iloveitaly]

This is a big problem, but not allowing a new invention or regulating it won't fix the issue. Decreasing freedom doesn't fix anything.

I have four kids. Without a Christian worldview it's tough to justify having kids. Kids are an incredible amount of work and require being willing to live for others, and not yourself, which only really makes sense with a Christian worldview (at least, to my knowledge; would love to understand where and how I am wrong here). Sure, kids have some natural benefits and bring joy, but you get most of that with a single kid.

Why have more than a single kid if your primary goal is optimizing for happiness here on earth?

[defrost]

Christians, by the data, are middle of the road re: large families by religion:

    Pew Research Center analyzed data on six religious groups – Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and people with no religious affiliation.

    Globally, the average Muslim lives in the biggest household (6.4 people), followed by the average Hindu (5.7), Christian (4.5), Buddhist (3.9), “none” (3.7) and Jew (3.7)

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/12/12/household-pa...

Many of the pronatalist altruists are more rich than religious; eg Musk and others:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/may/25...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40473060

It doesn't seem that a Christian worldview is neccesary for many with large families.

[iloveitaly]

This is a stellar point. Appreciate the response.

I don't understand the Muslim, Hindu, and Buddist worldview/culture. I'd love to. What causes them to have large families? Why is it baked into the culture?

Additionally, I'd be curiuous how they tested for religious affiliation. i.e. just asking someone if they are Christian, Hindu, etc isn't a great test of if they are a "true believer". Lots of folks have a cultural affiliation to a religion that doesn't impact their decision making.

For instance, Catholics do not allow any birth control: most Catholics ignore this and therefore are not truly Catholic. I'm sure there is a similar filter you could apply to other religions. My argument here would be that those are are "true believers" in a religion that has a strong articulation of an afterlife or valuing self-sacrifice as an important element of life have much bigger families.

I'd agree that many of the public/popular/rich pronatalist are not religious. However, if you remove the the public/popular/rich flag there are many more which are not rich in any way (the folks with the biggest families—8, 9, 10 kids—are very much not wealthy and don't care to be, in my experience). In other words, the fact that some popular folks are pronatalist and not religious doesn't change my thinking here: there will be exceptions.

You've changed my mind here: a Christian worldview isn't required, but a religious/supernatural worldview is. i.e. why put all of the effort required into having kids without believing that (a) self-sacrifice is valuable in and of itself and (b) a strong theology or belief in an afterlife? I'm sure there are some rationalists that would choose to have more kids because of the future of humanity (i.e. Elon, etc) but my argument would be these would be extremely rare as it conflicts with the hedonistic worldview (why care about the future of humanity if nothing happens when you die?).

In any case, it's really interesting to think about this stuff and I'd love to refine my thinking here and understand where I am wrong. Feel free to DM me to chat more!