[triplesec]

You are using a perfection fallacy, or black-and-white thinking here. That a significant number of ordinary peopple do not mask well or do not have / know of the correct mask to use doesn not make the masks or the process ineffective.

[wakawaka28]

It's not a fallacy. You're saying that masks work and if they don't you're just doing it wrong. Under what conditions, exactly, would you accept that masks don't work or are so unwieldy and ineffective as to be impractical? People wore masks over many years, and studied it, and found no conclusive evidence that they're worth it. Your argument is basically a No True Scotsman. If it didn't work for those mask wearers, they weren't True Mask Wearers and their masks were No True Masks. Nevermind that the masks were available, people did in fact wear them, and wearing a mask is simple (and it's supposed to be very simple). If a study was performed, it was No True Study, especially if it concluded that masks aren't worth it.

[csours]

It feels like we're in a cloud of mud here.

> Under what conditions, exactly, would you accept that masks don't work or are so unwieldy and ineffective as to be impractical?

I accept that as more of the following items are true, masking is less effective:

1. Wearers are unmotivated - if you don't want to wear a mask properly, you won't.

2. Wearers are uneducated - if a person has not been trained to fit a mask properly, AND to CHECK that fit, the mask will be less effective.

3. Masks of the proper standard and fit are unavailable. If a person cannot get a mask that fits them and meets standards, then masking will be ineffective. (This includes price)

4. Masks are too uncomfortable. Uncomfortable masks are very demotivating. Proper fit includes comfort; However the proper fit is not always the most comfortable. This dilemma is the reason that motivation is required. (If this feels like a paradox, consider human fitness - people who are more fit are more comfortable in their bodies, but sweating can be very uncomfortable)

5 + Anything that can affect any of the items above, including political or religious objections. (Basically this one brings in the whole universe)

---

I've been accused of being a nihilist when I say things like the following, but I would call it being realistic:

The universe does not owe you proof, and especially does not owe you satisfying proof in the form you seek.

The linked study DOES NOT show that masks are ineffective.

The linked study DOES show that prior studies are UNSATISFYING.

My original comment attempts to address this:

> > Studying disease spread at the level of rigor that this paper anticipates is very difficult, would never get sufficient funding, and would never pass a review board.

I also do not have satisfying proof that a mask mandate has beneficial effects at a population level.

However I am personally satisfied that: Well fitted masks of the proper standard, worn by motivated and educated people, will reduce both pathogen ingress and egress.

[wakawaka28]

So, you think people are too stupid or unwilling to wear a mask that authorities promised was beneficial, despite years of practice and constant browbeating. Of course I don't deny that unwilling/unmotivated people exist, but that should not preclude the generation of a convincing study somewhere in the whole world. It should at least be possible to collect data in healthcare facilities where masks were strictly imposed.

>The linked study DOES NOT show that masks are ineffective.

Right, it is a survey arguing that existing positive studies are inadequate to show benefits from masking.

>The universe does not owe you proof, and especially does not owe you satisfying proof in the form you seek.

The universe might not owe it to me to make things evident. However, people who want to argue with me do owe me proof. Especially when the outcome is a major imposition on my personal autonomy, and they have failed to collect adequate evidence over decades. We can argue that masks sound like they ought to do something for various particular scenarios, but that is a far cry from proving they are worth the time and effort to implement. Are they worth using in a room full of people who are eating and conversing without masks? Certainly not, even if they do work to some extent.

[csours]

Please take care with my words. I never said stupid.

[wakawaka28]

It's implied. Masks are an extremely simple thing, and you're suggesting that masks can't be tested because people can't figure it out, instead of blaming the masks themselves for not being effective or easy to apply. We call people who can't figure out simple things stupid (though perhaps not to their faces lol). I don't believe people who don't wear masks "properly" are uneducated. They don't care, because they know that the whole ritual is pointless. They don't care to fight it, and just want to conform the minimum amount to be left alone.