[masspro]

<hot-take type="anecdata"> My Clojure experience was that basic dev experience things were shockingly behind where any other moderately popular lang is at. It's been some time though so all I remember clearly is bad error output. Stack traces are hard to read unless you install $random_lib. But worse than stack traces are type errors/"Java errors": if you give the wrong args to a function, the error output is completely inscrutable, generally a very short string like `java.lang.Foo does not implement IBar`, which is only helpful if you kind of know how the Java layer works and all your args are different enough types that you can guess which one it's talking about (bonus: anything function-like is just `IFn` so good luck). Ahhh and that made me remember: the doc situation even for stdlib is bad. Everyone around me used a third-party site clojuredocs.org which has broken-formatted auto-ingested versions of the plaintext official doc strings, because it is still the least bad option. No one has decided on a docstring format. No one has decided on code stylistic things either, which has mostly precluded the existence of auto-formatter tools.

The lang itself is good and I recommend folks use a LISP sometime. I was just genuinely surprised a 17-year-old lang was lacking in these areas, and I'd be pretty careful about setting out on a long-term project with it, unless all of those things have radically improved from 6 months ago.

(And like other folks said, you genuinely need editor integrations to not be wasting all your time on pren balancing. Not clj's fault, just LISPs in general.)

[neilyio]

I'm an advocate for Clojure, and while I believe that the usability speed bumps are more than made up for, I completely agree with you. The awkwardness of Clojure's errors, REPL experience, and build tooling is a dealbreaker for many.

A couple years with Rust has taught me that intuitive errors and tooling will funnel you far enough into language to get you productive, and then you're much more likely to stay. There's just no way I would have stayed long enough to be a Rust professional if it hadn't been for cargo and rust-analyzer.

These "non-language" components of Clojure are just not easy enough to use, and its inhibited Clojure's growth. If, however, you do put in the time to grok these parts, the joy of using the language itself never fades.

[joshlemer]

Along the same lines with the docs, I also find it frustrating that a lot of the very most core basic abstractions and interfaces are left totally undefined in terms of documentation. Take `ISeq`'s definition. Surely, a candidate for the single most core interface.

https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/cloju...

But like, where is the javadoc? What exactly is supposed to be the contract of these methods `first`, `next`, `more`, `cons`? What's the difference between `next` and `more`?

I really just don't like that. Are we just supposed to pick up the core contracts/abstractions through oral teachings and slack channel messages?

[puredanger]

You don’t use the ISeq interface directly, you use them through the clojure.core API. The seq abstraction is documented at https://clojure.org/reference/sequences

[joshlemer]

It’s rare for an application developer to need to use ISeq, but library authors do use of when they want to implement custom seq’s right? For them, and also just for those curious to understand how the core interfaces work, it’s still better to be explicit and write what the contract is I reckon.

[puredanger]

Generally, custom seqs (rare) are implemented by leveraging something like `lazy-seq`, so library authors are also not using it.

Yes, it would be good if there were javadoc on more of the impl, but this is just not an issue for the vast majority of devs.