[repox]

I've been working with Laravel since '13 and PHP since '99.

Both just keeps becoming better and better to me. Recent years of needed improvement and feature development of PHP, keeps me happily invested in continuing with PHP as well.

I tried NodeJS/Typescript for a couple of years, between '21 and '23 - I never learned to like it and leaving the community was the best decision for my mental health in a software development context.

[chipdart]

> I tried NodeJS/Typescript for a couple of years, between '21 and '23 - I never learned to like it and leaving the community was the best decision for my mental health in a software development context.

That's an interesting statement, as it heavily contrasts with my personal experience.

From the start, TypeScript felt as a breath of fresh air and the whole experience was very enjoyable.

The only (and major) drawback was having to deal with JavaScript frameworks which required tsconfig.json/webpack voodoo to work at all, let alone with TypeScript, but once the project was sorted out everything was a pleasure.

Can you point out the single most egregious thing you experienced with TypeScript?

[repox]

> That's an interesting statement, as it heavily contrasts with my personal experience.

The key take here is that it's a personal experience - for the both of us. I'm confident that it works for some, the same way as PHP doesn't work for everybody.

> The only (and major) drawback was having to deal with JavaScript frameworks which required tsconfig.json/webpack voodoo to work at all, let alone with TypeScript, but once the project was sorted out everything was a pleasure.

I guess this is a great transition to your question...

> Can you point out the single most egregious thing you experienced with TypeScript?

The _most_ egregious thing? I would definitely say the community behind it. While I've worked with other languages as well (Kotlin, Dart, Python), the community behind NodeJS/TypeScript is the single most fragmented and toxic environment I've ever experienced.

It seems to have no common direction whether it comes to dependency managers, coding styles, transpilers, bundlers or much about any other “best practice” paradigms. And this also something that is pestering packages and the maintainers. Often, it looks more like a contest on who can make the most complex solution to simple problems as well. I don’t experience this vast amount of fragmentation in PHP, Python, Kotlin or Dart. Whenever you reach out to the community, you’re rarely met with more opinions than you have fingers and toes; sure - not all agree on everything, but there’s more often than not, a sense of consensus on what a common approach to any given problem could be.

[nine_k]

> no common direction

> Whenever you reach out to the community, you’re rarely met with more opinions than you have fingers

One looks like a large and fast-progressing area, the other like a smaller and more cohesive area. JS/TS ecosystems made a lot of breathtaking progress in the last 15 years. It has a price: trying all the new approaches to find a better path means a huge breadth and fragmentation of the mindshare.

Not that Python hasn't made a lot of progress in the same 15 years, but, frankly, it's not as varied and novel, even with the advent of gradual typing and async support in the language.

Stability may sound and even feel good, but being stuck with targeting IE6 or C89 is also stability. Both stability and progress have upsides and downsides, there's no absolute winner, and you have (and, importantly, can) choose the balance you're more comfortable with.

[chipdart]

> (...) the community behind NodeJS/TypeScript is the single most fragmented and toxic environment I've ever experienced.

On that notes everyone would do well to skip Rust entirely. What a shit show of a community.

[winrid]

> once the project was sorted out

The problem is this never happens.

It's constant churn in that ecosystem to keep the build system working in any medium/large project, way more so than in any other backend runtime/package managers I've used.

It's hard to quantify, maybe, but it just feels like constant stress. I've worked in bad Java shops where you wonder if the build will compile today. The average Node places are much worse in terms of the tooling and build system not working for whatever fancy reason on <insert day>.

Recent example: Did someone at Google decide to merge a PR to a library two dependencies down? Because now shit won't compile, the compiler OOMs. Just what I wanted to figure out today, a crashing compiler on a minor library version change that nobody asked for.

[noahtallen]

It’s a challenge, but it’s not that bad. All the package managers have lock files, so no dependencies change daily until you update them. You could even have auto-update via dependabot or renovate and the smallest amount of CI would stop the breaking update from getting through. I’ve worked in a lot of node projects and never worried about whether they’ll compile today. Lock files have been standard/default practice for a long time.

The hard part is actually doing the updates. So many breaking changes, so many new (often better) approaches, so many different tools that interact with each other in weird ways…

[chipdart]

> The problem is this never happens.

It happens regularly to the point that it becomes the happy path.

The trick is that you should pin all dependencies and not just let auto-updates happen, and instead treat even patch updates as if they could be major-version bumps.

> It's hard to quantify, maybe, but it just feels like constant stress.

I agree, but the key factor is auto-updates cause pain. Once you disable those you no longer experience any pain. For instance, no one needs to constantly upgrade dev dependencies, and even patch upgrades to TypeScript are hard to justify without full regression tests.

[bguebert]

If you put off all updating doesn't that lead to a lot of technical debt down the road? I guess most of the stuff I work with has to work for a long time and putting off updates just makes for a worse pile to sort out later once you find something newish to integrate and now it won't work with the older existing stuff. For us, keeping up to date incrementally helps prevent that maintenance work from building up. I guess it depends on how long you'll be maintaining the code. If it's something that won't need to work for a long time and you have enough devs then you can probably skip keeping things up to date and just rewrite it when it needs updating.

[chipdart]

> If you put off all updating doesn't that lead to a lot of technical debt down the road?

It depends on what you interpret as being technical debt.

For example, are you piling up technical debt if you skip a patch update to the typescript compiler? What about Jester? What if you skip a point release of React? Are you piling up technical debt if you are not on the bleeding edge?

In case this counts as technical debt, what's the productivity hit of staying on that treadmill? Are you actually gaining anything by systematically be on the latest and greatest?

> For us, keeping up to date incrementally helps prevent that maintenance work from building up.

In my experience with modern frontend frameworks, the vast majority of these incremental changes do not add any significant value and in fact amount to wasteful noise. Some patch releases introduce regressions that are ironed out in following releases, and automatically applying these updates only buys you problems.

Also, it's very hard to justify having to refresh your whole dependency tree at each commit, or risk experiencing problems because switching local development branches causes dependency issues. Installing dependendencies should be a rare occurrence.

I can't overstate the importance thay pinning all dependencies and lowering the frequency of how these dependencies are updated has on a team's development workflow. No one will get hurt if you upgrade Jest or TypeScript on a monthly basis instead of at each commit.

[winrid]

I think pinning dependencies helps, but I have literally never seen an organization do this with Node. At one job, the "architecture review board" decided that all services would always use "latest" for all dependencies...

[winrid]

I don't disagree, but there are other issues too. Namely the Node runtime is much harder to diagnose performance issues than with even async Java, and every time this comes up it's a huge resource sink for most teams I've seen.

I think Node is a great tool. Lots of FastComments is built with Node. I just don't advocate for building large systems or monoliths with it.

[creamyhorror]

I think for my next project I'll be trying out using Laravel's prebuilt user auth/login system, then building the business APIs in Node+TS (interfacing with the same relational DB). Developing not-so-dynamic webpages is just quicker in Laravel/Rails/Adonis, and reusing a prebuilt auth system across small projects just seems logical.

There's a bit more coordination involved in this approach, but there's sufficient separation of auth logic from other logic to allow it to work efficiently. Might run into issues with performing auth-related tasks (like invalidate session) on the Node API side, but I think they won't be too difficult to work out.

[anonzzzies]

> and leaving the community was the best decision for my mental health in a software development context.

Undervalued sentiment.

[jmnicolas]

> and leaving the community was the best decision for my mental health in a software development context.

May I ask if it was for technical reason (JS ecosystem breaking constantly) or for people reason?

[repox]

> May I ask if it was for technical reason (JS ecosystem breaking constantly) or for people reason?

The "people" is the reason why the ecosystem keeps breaking and there's no consensus on how to do what; so the answer is both in a combination.