Where to Move?

[ahmed546]

Hi,

Just got my bachelors in computer science and masters in software engineering.

I have Dutch EU passport.

At some point in my career I want to have my own business, but taxes here (Netherlands) are really high.

I prefer cold weather and want highest standard of living possible. I want to settle down and raise a family of two kids.

Where should I move to?

[mtmail]

Nobody likes taxes but the highest standard of living, including infrastructure, hospitals, security have to be paid for somehow.

[ahmed546]

also I don't care about public transport and stuff

I'm fine getting around by car mostly

not sure about the security part, Dubai has no taxes and is very safe (although really really hot)

[leftcenterright]

are ability to express your opinions freely, participating in a democratic process and having no internet censorship part of your expectation from "highest standard of living"?

[ahmed546]

Not really, I'm not a political person.

I can use a VPN to get around that stuff.

Not an issue.

[leftcenterright]

A lot of scientists and engineers/ in Nazi regime were not political and somehow ended up embracing all the propaganda. It helped no one.

[ahmed546]

true, but I mean highest standards with lowest amount of tax as a business owner

[flakyfilibuster]

how much did you pay for your education though?

[mickelsen]

Does it mean he will have to pay for it all his life? Ask Spaniards how they feel about the constant brain drain.

Maybe they don't care so much, but they could finance other things. Just as he's free to vote, he's free to move to another society.

Chileans currently face this disagreement. They are discussing raising tax levels to pay for more free college and to pardon a chunk of student debt. This is quite unfair to those who have already paid, and even worse for those who took on debt and haven't fallen behind, as now they will pay forever in the form of taxation.

Not everybody likes socialism, pal.

If people are taking advantage of something without retribution, it's time for the society that enables such things to get their priorities in order. Until recently, anyone could study for free in Argentina, even non-resident foreigners. A country with worse problems like food insecurity and hyperinflation was effectively funding college for foreigners, with no retribution needed. Truly a mess if you ask me. I'm glad they fixed it.

[throwaway11460]

You're EU citizen so you have free entry to Switzerland. I'd seriously explore that.

Another option could be Poland, Czech Republic, Bulgaria.

[huevosabio]

San Francisco, it has the right cultural mix for starting a company, amazingly beautiful city and nature, enough cold and sun throughout the year.

Don't listen to the bad press, not because it's untrue but because it's incomplete. The bad things are bad, but the good things are glorious.

[hnthrowaway0328]

Come to Canada, find an IT job, grind for 2-3 years, apply for immigration, apply for citizenship, find a US contractor job, grind for 10-15 years, find a gov job, relax for 15 years, retire.

[ahmed546]

US contractor job while living in Canada? Would that pay higher than a Canadian contract?

What about education and stuff for children? Will it be very expensive?

What type of wealth do you think I can build up with this plan?

Kind regards

[curmudgeon22]

US tech wages almost always pay a significant premium over Canadian companies. However, most US companies have separate Canadian pay bands to match the lower Canadian salaries.

Education isn’t cheap, but it’s less crazy than the US. Also, you don’t have to pay to go to the doctor.

How much money you can save will depend largely on where you live. Toronto and Vancouver are pretty expensive, there are lots of cheaper options that would help you build wealth with a good paying remote job.

[ih]

I just moved to the Seattle area and like it so far. It's very scenic and cool so far temperature-wise (although getting warmer over the years from what I read). I have family here, but even if I didn't, it'd be a strong candidate because of the weather (I'm ok with cloudy and cool), nature/scenery, and the tech industry. Housing is quite expensive though so raising kids may be more difficult...

[ahmed546]

yeah I heard Seattle was the best for money in the US,

the weather is great, I like rain while working tbh

I'm pretty sure it's really hard immigrating there though from the netherlands

(correct me if I'm wrong)

[toast0]

For immigration to the US, I don't think an origin of the Netherlands qualifies you for an special visas, but it's also not an 'impacted' country where there are backlogs several years (decades) for immigration in some categories. If you've got a masters degree, that may help you qualify in some visa categories that might speed up processing.

If you don't have any family connections, you're likely to need an employer to sponsor you, but because you're not from China, India, Mexico, or the Philippines, the process shouldn't take forever, if you have an employer willing to go through the process.

A typical path is to work for a multinational employer somewhere you've got work authorization, with an intent to transfer to the US at some point, and then work towards a green card (permanent residency) and maybe citizenship. The US immigration process is really too slow (and random, if you're coming in through H-1B) to hire fresh grads from other countries directly into the US.

[ahmed546]

It would be hard finding someone willing to sponsor, since they can just hire a local.

Getting to a good position where you can ask to be relocated seems to be really hard too (correct me if I'm wrong).

Overall the US seems to not be a good option for me, since I completed my masters here. It might be if you study your master degree in the US, since it makes immigrating much easier.

[toast0]

I mean, (when they're hiring) all the big techs are hiring from wherever they can. Local is great, across the country is great, outside the country is fine too. Really big tech can do stuff like hire you, have you work near where you are or somewhere that's easy to get visas for, and sponsor you to apply for H-1B when the lottery opens every year until you win or they can apply under another category (I think there's a category for 'important overseas manager' which sometimes they'll do). Then once you're here, I think it's relatively straightforward to get on the path to a greencard, if the employee wants to sponsor that.

Getting directly hired seems hard; H-1B requires application by early April and if you win the lottery, you can't start until October. I'm not sure many employers will be willing to do that. Maybe if you can WFH in the meantime? Other work visas might not have the same application -> start times, but are still a bit of a random wait on immigration processing, which could be denied.

Getting a masters in the US is a good pathway to immigration though, yes. You can work under OPT after graduation, and you have time to mingle and maybe find a spousal sponsor ;) But it's probably too late for that.

I got in the easy way, through birth, so I don't have direct experience. But I wouldn't suggest you rule it out for sure. I think there's also a 'diversity visa' you can apply for, and they might draw your name out of a hat. I know someone who got in that way. But I know a lot of immigrants because I worked at big tech companies, and they're a magnet for immigrants.

[2rsf]

> I prefer cold weather and want highest standard of living possible. I want to settle down and raise a family of two kids.

While the on-paper taxes in Sweden are high (and salaries are lower) you get back more than in the Netherlands, especially with kids. I can compare my quality of life with acquaintances in the Netherlands and ours is definitely higher, having a similar background.

[ipaddr]

The obvious choice is to go to Germany. Another option is to go virtual and stay in your country until you reach a point where the tax savings make sense. Canada might be a good choice for nature and business. England could make sense.

[ahmed546]

Germany seems really similar to the Netherlands, how is it an obvious choice?

With virtual you mean working remotely and then keeping your clients while making the move? Or trying to build some kind of business completely online?

England seems similar to Netherlands too. Canada might be interesting, although I wonder why so many Canadians immigrate to the US.

[yellow_lead]

There was a recent article posted here about how difficult it is to setup a company in Germany though.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39959368

[ttymck]

What do you dislike about taxes?

You will pay the same tax in the US, and get much less for your money.

You might need to focus on what you can control (your business, which you've told us nothing about), rather than what you cannot.

[ahmed546]

I'm just wondering where I could have the best life possible being a small business owner.

Tax depends on the state, Washington has no income tax. It's a tech hub as well and you can make much muuuuch more money over there than in the Netherlands.

I'm still really young so location is definitely something I can control.

I have no business yet and I'm at the beginning of my career.

I don't have a wife, but I'm planning to find one and have 2 kids.

[jorisboris]

My gut feel would say Canada. It's cold, it's high standard of living, I'm not sure about taxes but I presume better than Europe.

but it's a gut feel, not based on facts or local knowledge.

[decide1000]

Taxes in the Netherlands are high but there are ways to reduce them.

As a fellow dutch I've been looking at Romania and Hungary for the same goals. However, I stayed in the Netherlands and I am happy I did.

[ahmed546]

How much can you reduce the taxes? They're like 50% above 70k, which you easily reach with a SaaS business or something.

I heard about Romania through Andrew Tate. Always thought it was a shithole.

Why did you end up deciding to stay in the Netherlands? Although our country will always have a special place in my heart, it does not have a lot to offer regarding for example nature. We also have a housing crisis right now.

Did you look into whether or not you'd need to learn a new language?

(cuz I'm not sure if that's required in our industry)

[x11antiek]

Dude, I think you really need to talk to a professional tax consultant and ask them about it. There are so many tax optimization schemes... I think you will be amazed at the opportunities that exist :-) "Where do I want to live?" and "In what jurisdiction do I need to register my business to maximize profit from my operations?" are two very different questions.

[ahmed546]

Yeah, but the optimization is limited and I was asking what I could be expecting.

There definitely are quite a lot of people that do move to Romania, Dubai etc.

Probably 'cause they're not satisfied with the amount optimized.

[x11antiek]

No offense man, but imo, you have a lot of incorrect assumptions just because you are inexperienced in the topic. People live in Romania and Dubai for very different reasons. You can run a very profitable business and pay very little income tax anywhere, and have personal real estate, cars, investments, etc, registered to business entities worldwide. This is not a "pay 40% income tax or leave" situation as you think it is. And moving to Romania, believe me you will encounter other issues with running a business there. (I live in the Balkans.) Good luck.

[ahmed546]

Why would people move to Romania if not for taxes? It's basically third world.

What you're saying sounds too good to be true. If it was like that nobody would pay tax and the government wouldn't be able to fund basically anything.

What would these issues be if you mind elaborating?

[keiferski]

If you want to be in Europe, have cold weather, higher salaries, relatively low taxes, and a decent environment for families, then Switzerland is probably the answer.

[closetkantian]

Maybe Korea or Japan. Have you considered the Baltic states like Estonia and Lithuania?

[ahmed546]

I love Japan, I really do but they speak almost 0 English and their language is really hard to get good at.

Also taxes in Japan seem to be quite high, on par with the Netherlands.

Baltic states look interesting! According to google Estonia has a fixed 20% income tax.

Although I'm not sure how to pick between them, all three look kind of similar. I've also surprisingly never heard about someone migrating there for financial purposes. I've always thought of the US as the only place to make a lot of money.

[nvilcins]

Latvian here.

You are right about the taxes in the Baltic countries - in all three you can get ~20% effective tax (minor differences between the countries). And they are really similar otherwise.

Most people in a similar situation to yours pick Estonia. It is the most focused one on tech, supporting startups, and overall the most developed one (relatively speaking). Also seems to be the most expensive of the three.

Lithuania has the most business-oriented culture in my experience. Otherwise a nice and chill place.

Latvia is maybe not the best in the above regards (though, not too far off either), but I would say it has the most stuff going on and things to do overall.

[seabass-labrax]

I'm engaging because it's an interesting question, but it's also a really strange question. Firstly, because you're effectively looking for tax advice in every country simultaneously - this is the domain of experts whose usual clients are people who've already made the money, not those at the beginning of a entrepreneurial career.

The difference between tax levels between countries can be tens of percentage points. But the difference between the productivity of a competent manager-owner and an incompetent one can be hundreds of percentage points! Half of all companies fail within three years of starting. Losing your company is like having a tax rate of 100%! With a masters education in computer science, why not study for another masters degree or doctorate in business? That sounds like a much better investment than moving across the world in order to optimize your future tax situation. Countries can't take away your education, but they can certainly change taxes.

Also, you've not given any hints as to what you enjoy in life. You clearly have preferences - you said you prefer cold weather - but if you're in business, say, for the startup culture, you probably won't get much of a thrill on a pacific island, even if (on paper) it might be the cheapest place in which to start an internet business.

Finally, does your family come into your business in any way? If you aspire to be the manager of a business that will one day pass to your heirs, you'd want to also consider your children's opportunities - availability and cost of education, for instance.

[ahmed546]

In order to pay taxes in a certain country, you need to live there. It's easier to build the company right from the start in your desired country, than to fire all your staff and move there.

I'm not a know-it-all, I can partner with someone that has a masters in business administration or similar. This remark in particular sounds kind of ridiculous.

In life I enjoy sitting home, reading and playing guitar. Almost all countries have superior nature to the Netherland I can sometimes explore in the weekends.

My children can do their bachelors in the country we live in. Since I have an EU passport I can easily send them to do a masters at a more highly ranked university. Especially with the money gained from the tax-savings.

[WhereIsTheTruth]

Switzerland

[ahmed546]

high taxes except for canton Zug iirc

very overrated, barely worth moving to if not for the great nature

[seabass-labrax]

High taxes? You have to consider both federal and cantonal tax, but personal income tax is in all cases lower than almost every other country in Western and Central Europe. You have mandatory social insurance contributions to make as well, but theses are not much different from that of neighbouring countries.

[ahmed546]

(correct me if I'm wrong)