[theonealtair]

Raspberry Pi did a lot to revolutionize the micro board/pc market, they truly had an amazing influence on the industry that I’m grateful for. Now a days they feel overpriced and underpowered, and their influence spurred a new market that has produced much better alternatives. This IPO just confirms this perspective for me. Thank you raspberry pi for what you did. But I doubt I’ll ever want to buy one again.

[II2II]

It depends upon how you look at it. Something like the Raspberry Pi is considerably more expensive. On the other hand, they started with a very low performance and weak feature set and have evolved into a product with good performance and a much richer feature set. Something like the Raspberry Pi Zero is much closer to the original Raspberry Pi, and its price is much closer to the original Raspberry Pi. Much of the price bloating features were a product of customer request. To be fair, they dropped many hints that it would increase the cost of the product.

From my understanding, support has also improved over the years. Raspberry Pi always had a bit of an edge in community support, but they also had a push to develop free resources for education markets and hobbyists. The former has been traditionally been a high-priced add-on. The latter has traditionally been provided by third parties (more reasonably priced, but still at extra cost). None of this has disappeared, though it does appear to be less prominent than in the past.

I think the big change is in the competition. SBCs were traditionally high cost poorly supported products or even higher cost well supported products (though you were unlikely to get support unless you were a business). Now we have a flood of low cost poorly supported products, albeit with slightly higher standards for support than in times past.

[999900000999]

You pay for the OS support. Alternative SBCs are much harder to get working and develop on.

[pquki4]

I think they are referring to those mini PCs -- either new ones from Chinese brands with Intel N100 or "refurbished thin clients" from HP or Dell -- that cost ~$150 but are way more powerful than a raspi in terms of performance and capability.

[Aurornis]

> Intel N100 or "refurbished thin clients" from HP or Dell -- that cost ~$150 but are way more powerful than a raspi in terms of performance and capability.

Comparing a refurbished PC to an SBC is like comparing apples to oranges.

I think the only people who are disappointed are the ones who were buying the wrong tool for the job.

You get a Linux SBC if you need some combination of small size, low power, convenient access to peripherals (I2C, SPI, and so on) or other unique features.

If you really only need the most powerful computer you can get for your budget and you don't care about the SBC features, you probably shouldn't have been buying Raspberry Pis to begin with.

[pquki4]

You might think it's comparing apples to oranges but it's not. Go to forums and see what people do with raspberry pi. Lots of them use it as a Linux machine (Pi hole etc). You could say it's the wrong tool for the job, but that's what a lot of people do, in reality. And they are not wrong -- when raspi was $35 and the whole package is like $60 it made a lot of sense.

And actually many raspberry pis are sitting around doing nothing, because people realize that they aren't interested in the embedded side of it, but the "computer" side of it is too weak to do anything useful. In that sense it is even worse than a mini PC which has enogh power to do some "real" light computer work.

And I didn't make any of this up. These are real things that I see people talk about, all the time.

[ianburrell]

I think it will be a good thing to get rid of the people using Raspberry Pi as cheap desktops. It was always a compromise before cheap little computers were available. Now that they are, the Pi can go back to being hobby computer.

There are lots of projects that need a small cheap computer that doesn't really need display.

[999900000999]

I was thinking of competitors like the orange pi, which is basically a raspberry pi clone with worse support.

It's still works but I sent mine back with an about 3 days since I couldn't do all the things I could do on a raspberry pi.

[walteweiss]

Do you mind going into details here? I have a RPi and a friend has Orange Pi. They’re the same, but his was cheaper and is more powerful.

[megous]

> You pay for the OS support.

No you don't. RPi5, zero upstream Linux support 7 months after release.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/SUSE-Upstream-Linux-RPi-5

Zillion dollar (pound?) company, apparently, and they rely on some volunteers from SUSE for even basic upstreaming. If you're paying them for OS support, you're throwing out the money.

> Alternative SBCs are much harder to get working and develop on.

No they are not. If anything it was always RPi that was its own quirky thing.

Pretty much all of my SBCs are some form of mainline U-Boot booting mainline Linux (sometimes + a few patches) and a standard Linux userspace. Very uniform.

RPi 2+ I have is some weird bootloader that doesn't fit the wider SBC ecosystem, with its own special configuration, and a lot of RPi only tooling to control their firmware running on the graphics CPU or whatever.

[999900000999]

If you buy a raspberry pi you have a massive ecosystem to use.

If you buy a different board and things don't work your on your own.

[megous]

Most boards have some ecosystem to rely on. Either mainline support, some community organized either independently around a particular SoC manufacturer (like linux-sunxi), or around a board manufacturer (Radxa, Pine64, ...), etc.

You're rarely on your own. And even if you are, it's much easier when you have an actual detailed SoC documentation, board schematics, and when things are not some weird ad-hoc thing, but something fairly standard like U-Boot, that you already know and can re-use the knowledge of on any other board, without any vendor lock-in, etc. And when the docs are not some completely ridiculous thing that Rpi was known for years ago.

[999900000999]

I'll put it this way, I have a project I'm considering where both a Milk V Duo and a pie zero would probably do fine. But if I follow the raspberry pi example, there's dozens upon dozens of examples for me to look at. If I use the Milk V Duo I'm going to have to figure out that stuff by myself.

The libraries for a pi hat might only exist for the pi for example. I guess I could write my own library though.

[megous]

Yeah, there's a difference in available public resources between a chip nobody knew anything about just 6 months ago and is just getting upstreamed to Linux in the current release cycle, and BCM2835 from Rpi Zero which has been around for 11 years.

Are you serious? :) At least compare with something like Allwinner H3/A10/... which had similar lifetime.

[azinman2]

What are the better alternatives? I don’t think any have anywhere near the level of software and community support nor stability.

[jsheard]

The situation with ARM hasn't changed much unless your budget stretches to Amperes stuff, but the big change is that x86 SBCs and mini-PCs have gotten very cheap, and of course those Just Work with any Linux distro or even Windows. The Intel N100 is incredibly capable for the price.

[KaiserPro]

> The Intel N100 is incredibly capable for the price.

Hard agree, I have one and I love it. Its currently doing the VM work of what a £10k server did in 2012.

But if I want GPIO, and or battery powered things with linux, then the pi is the way forward still.

Anything else, and a pico/esp32 will do well.

[jsheard]

TBH for projects that need GPIO I would be inclined to use an RP2040 or similar hooked up to USB, then any machine can be used as the host. That's pretty much how the Pi5 works anyway, the GPIOs are driven by the RP1 southbridge which is more or less an overgrown RP2040.

[Aurornis]

> TBH for projects that need GPIO I would be inclined to use an RP2040 or similar hooked up to USB, then any machine can be used as the host

Two separate platforms connected over USB is substantially more complicated, expensive, power hungry, and consumes a lot more space.

The value prop of SBCs is that they're compact and you can do low-level work in a single package. Connecting an RP2040 to a PC and writing software for both is the opposite end of the complexity spectrum.

[moffkalast]

Yeah but why aren't there more boards with a built in coprocessor like that given how cheap they are now? Iirc only Lattepanda and the Pi Foundation make these sort of boards, and the former is overpriced beyond any common sense.

[jsheard]

Keeping the GPIO interface separate does have its advantages, if you accidentally explode a GPIO pin on an external RP2040 board then you've lost a couple of dollars instead of an entire >$50 SBC.

It doesn't have to take up much space either: https://www.waveshare.com/product/rp2040-one.htm

[varispeed]

What kind of GPIO you need? If you need slow (under 1MHz) you can easily slap some USB to GPIO device and Bob's your uncle.

[tombert]

Any reason you can't do GPIO with the ESP32? I've had pretty good luck with GPIO in NodeMCU.

[KaiserPro]

I do! as I said the pico/esp32/rp2040 are useful tools to have lying around. I'm currently using one to be a stepper controller for a project I'm doing now.

However the best thing about the Rpi GPIO stack is the support. If I google "how do I do x with y on pi" I will get lots of resources, along with the official docs (the rp2040 docs are great by the way) and a bunch of hardware that is mostly plug and play.

[tombert]

Yeah, fair; there's something nice about the fact that the Raspberry Pi is "just Linux"; it's not some attempt at an embedded version of POSIX.

You have the full Linux kernel and packages to play with, the GPIO stuff (if performance isn't a huge deal) can easily be controlled by simply writing to files, meaning that you can do quasi-embedded stuff in basically any language you want, or at least any language that has an ARM port to Linux, which is basically everything nowadays.

Still, I'm quite partial to the ESP32 with NodeMCU just because the power consumption is so ridiculously low and NodeMCU + Lua is pretty easy since it has full GC and gives you a node.js-style callbacks that I think are generally easier to work with than doing it myself in C. Most of my embedded projects have moved to the ESP32 as a result.

[Marsymars]

The top-end Alder-Lake-N N305 is good too! Double the threads, and probably a bit worse performance-per-dollar.

[graphe]

When do you use GPIO with Linux?

[KaiserPro]

Something with higher order processing requirements.

the rp2040w has wifi, micropython and a bunch of GPIO, all running at low hundreds of megs. Great for motor controllers and that sort of stuff. I use them a lot for the sort of things I would have used Pis for.

However thats because its python. If you want rust, or javascript, then the pi is probably still a good option (I know there are native ports, but they are not as common or easy. )

But if you want computer vision, or, can't be arsed with micro based programms, then pi is where its at.

The other type of application is home assistant. I have an N100 running HA in a VM. It would have been easier with all the home security stuff to have it running on a pi directly. (yes you can use esp32 as binary sensors, which is what I do, but its expensive to have things that aren't wifi.)

[colejohnson66]

The same things you'd use GPIO with Linux for on a Raspberry Pi: anything.

[graphe]

Anything is not a useful comment. When? I'm asking for a use case, I haven't seen anyone use them for a specific reason to use Linux. I'm asking about sensors and software that works together better than using it with an MCU

[kllrnohj]

Especially if you're willing to go used. 5 year old lenovo, dell, and hp mini PCs are all over ebay as companies dump them due to simply being out of the typical 5 year enterprise warranty. They are otherwise still very potent and capable machines

[michaelt]

> the big change is that x86 SBCs and mini-PCs have gotten very cheap

Yes - and at the same time, the RPi has gotten more expensive, rising from ~$25 circa 2013 to $60-$80 for the latest RPi 5. Neither price including power supply and SD card. Of course the RPi 5 has more cores, a faster clock speed, more RAM, and built-in wifi so you do get more for your money.

Once upon a time, you were looking at $25 for a Pi and $250 for intel. These days it's more like $80 vs $180.

[ThatPlayer]

The Raspberry Pi 4 is still good value at $35 . If your use case can be handled by a Pi 4, it's a good pick at that price range over the competitors. Most of the competitors are going to have similar i/o, but with a Rockchip RK3566 chip which is slower (unless you're using the NPU)

The Raspberry Pi Zero 2W is also very interesting for the size and $15 price tag. I also liked the 3A but no one remembers that one.

They're older, but everyone else is still playing catch-up, and Raspberry Pi will produce them for a while. I do hope they have a proper $35 board to upgrade to in the future.

[dvdbloc]

Sure if you are trying to get a cheap desktop computer, the Pi always made a mediocre desktop experience. But if you need GPIO or very low power consumption or a SPI connection with a community that understands its quirks very well I doubt you are going to be happy with an old Intel desktop.

[michaelt]

The low power, GPIO and SPI on the Pi are all trash compared to microcontrollers, most of which are also cheaper and better documented.

But if you specifically want to run Linux and have SPI and GPIO on the same chip then sure, the RPi will do that.

[chrisjj]

OOI, why would any user care what's on the same chip?

[mixmastamyk]

Don't forget the 20-40% inflation over the last decade.

[tombert]

Yeah, it's actually insane how much X86_64 stuff has dropped in price.

Yesterday I received two Ryzen 9 mini gaming computers [1], one to replace my old rack mount server and one to be a home theater PC. Each cost about $400, and they are capable of emulating the PS3 and Xbox 360 smoothly (I don't really have any new games so I wasn't able to push the limit too much, but still emulating those consoles requires some horsepower!).

Maybe I'm just out of the loop (very likely), but $400 for a super low-power gaming computer feels insanely cheap to me. The server one in particular will pay for itself in about a year due to power savings alone compared to my rack mount server.

[1] Beelink SER6's for those interested.

[eloisant]

The Raspberry Pi is the best if you can find it at MSRP, but I haven't seen that for many years now. You can only find it for at least double and at that price it's not worth it.

There are many alternatives that, granted, don't have a community as big as RPi, but are perfectly valid and can be found at a normal price.

[wlll]

I did a quick Google. The pi 5 4GB MSRP is $60 I think, there are some available on Amazon UK for £54.90 with delivery tomorrow. That's apparently $69.53, so above MSRP, but not terrible. There may be cheaper sources I've not googled hard.

[KaiserPro]

They are at msrp now for large parts of EMEA

[radicality]

rpi5 is at msrp of $80 for the 8gb version and widely available at that price in USA, just bought one few days ago.

[haunter]

Depends what do you want to do but I'd say Dell & Lenovo micro PCs. x86, changeable and upgradable CPU, RAM, and storage. And they are stil very very small https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-x0mVgDABA I have severall Optiplex micros at home for selfhosting, playing around VMs etc and I love them.

In Europe you can get one with a 6th gen i5 CPU, 4GB RAM and SSD for ~100€. And of course you can upgrade the CPU for something better, add 32 GB RAM, bigger storage etc.

No GPIO pins though.

[pokstad]

Intel chips are becoming dirt cheap. Intel has a lot of cheap dev boards that are more robust than RPi. Maybe not the same level of community support. Recently I bought a refurbished Intel micro size desktop PC to replace my RPi home server.

[Pxtl]

They've always felt overpriced to me imho - not intrinsically at the sticker-price level, but the workarounds needed to obtain constantly-out-of-stock units, get good-enough on/off functionality, good-enough power-supply, good-enough SD cards eliminated the savings of the device itself being cheap.

I actually appreciate that the Pi5 has finally solved the on/off problem, and would be willing to pay the premium price for that when I'm interested in buying a new SBC.

[kllrnohj]

I think the price has stealthily increased as the required dressings got more demanding. Like the initial pi could be powered by any random phone charger you had laying around. But the new ones are a lot more picky and demanding. The new one also really demands a cooling solution, which is yet another cost the old one didn't have without being an actual MSRP increase.

By the time you fully dress a pi now it's like $100-130. The pi itself is only like half the cost if that.

[Pxtl]

My first Pi was a 3 and even that one was picky as hell about its power supply.

[chrisjj]

> the Pi5 has finally solved the on/off problem

Please do tell.

[Pxtl]

The Pi 5 has a power button finally, and a Normally Open jumper that you can wire into to implement a mechanical power-button off-board.

[Narishma]

> Now a days they feel overpriced and underpowered

They've been underpowered since day 1. That hasn't stopped them being successful.

[hilbert42]

I agree, and I would add that I think this IPO is the beginning of the end of what we were used to.

The company will end up the way many companies go after an IPO, the importance of product drops in relation to that of shareholder profit.

[klysm]

What are the much better alternatives? I’m not really aware of any