[whstl]

> What most people seem to complain about when they say "Java" is actually dependency injection frameworks

This is precisely what I said with “ due to what idiomatic Java looks like and how libraries/frameworks are structured”.

Sure, in a platonic ideal Java codebase, it’s all great, but I am talking about my actual practical experience, and I said as much in my message.

[mike_hearn]

Yeah but I don't know if DI (ab)usage is really idiomatic Java. I've written lots of Java over the years and only rarely used DI frameworks. Libraries never use them. When I did use them they've been fairly restrained and most of the code you wouldn't notice it. It might be idiomatic if all you do is write web servers.

[whstl]

Alright, that's fair! I only ever wrote web apps in Java, other than very small scripts and libraries. You're right.