[snowpid]

The discussions usually suffer that there are different migrations route: Call it illegal or legal migration. Illegal migration try to abuse the asylum system to get into Europe and then work there in low paid jobs (which are better conditions then home). 90 % of all migration discussion are about this. Legal migration is much more accepted (its legal anyway), more educated people. It also has its flaws: housing problems, migrates who refuse to learn the local language (very important in Netherlands recently). But this is less discussed and has more economic benefits for the local population.

[yurishimo]

I agree. Personally, as someone who chose to come here from the US, I'm perfectly content to learn Dutch. Just as when Mexican immigrants come to the US, there is an expectation that you learn English (and it's quite explicit I might add!).

Do you think it would be helpful for governments to enforce more strict "integration" policies to satisfy the worries of the local population? If I'm not mistaken, Denmark has a much more robust integration process and I tend to see less pushback from Danes about immigrants.

[trueismywork]

English is a much more attractive language to learn than Dutch especially if you don't know if you're going to stay in that country for a long time. So, such expectations create bias towards people with already a solid footing in the country.

[snowpid]

So the Netherlands might not be the best option for you. Maybe try UK or Canada or US :)

[trueismywork]

And you see that happening where US remains more attractive destination for highly skilled people and Europe remains attractive for people who are willing to invest that much time for whatever reason (choice or necessity). And you see that in quality of immigration and then people wonder why they don't get economically beneficial immigrants..

[snowpid]

They do. According to State of European Tech 2023 Europe is a net importer of Global Talent.

btw It is also absolutely personally a net win to invest in a new language or a new culture.

[trueismywork]

> According to State of European Tech 2023 Europe is a net importer of Global Talent.

Then why are jobs empty in Germany? It's a net importer, but 30% of people in Germany also leave after living their for some years.

Also, regarding bew language, culture, it can definitely be a net win. But it's always about tradeoff. For someone from an third world country doing their masters, the net win from language might be less than net win from taking advantage of all the education resources available to them now in Europe.

A good engineer without knowledge of local language has a more robust prospects around the world than a bad engineer with local language knowledge.

[snowpid]

" If I'm not mistaken, Denmark has a much more robust integration process and I tend to see less pushback from Danes about immigrants. " Denmark wasn't a big goal for migration anyway. I like to see the results before I opt it in such harsh measures (like forcing people to move out). But again, this was more about illegal migration.

In Germany antisemitic character traits are reason not to get the citizen ship (which I agree) but the whole woke + pro Palestine crowd was very unpleased about.

[racional]

Should applicants for citizenship to Germany be required to sign a written statement "acknowledging the right of Russia to exist"? Or the People's Republic of China, say?

That's what at least one version of the test (in Saxony-Anhalt) requires -- except that it happens to apply to a certain other random country (Israel). But hey, if you're a fan of McCarthyist loyalty oaths of this sort, then I suppose this is the kind of thing you like.

It would also make you complicit in a form of antisemitism -- in that it denies the right of Orthodox Jews (some of whom are fundamentally opposed to the current State of Israel because it preempts the coming of the Messiah) to be true to their own views and identity in regard to this matter. BTW this is an opinion based on deeply held religious views, not on any political standpoint per se.

Apparently the yahoos who came up with this law don't feel these people have a right to express their deeply held views in accordance with what they see as Jewish Law. And they certainly don't think such people -- the "wrong kind" of Jews, I guess -- should be welcome in Germany.

You may now thank the "woke crowd" for saving you from this particular form of authoritarian (and antisemitic) nonsense.

[snowpid]

" Should applicants for citizenship to Germany be required to sign a written statement "acknowledging the right of Russia to exist"? Or the People's Republic of China, say? " There are not many people denying Russia or Chinese to make a state? And definitely there was no genocide to them.

"in that it denies the right of Orthodox Jews" a small group of Orthodox Jews, seeing as weirdos among other Jews.

" You may now thank the "woke crowd" for saving you from this particular form of authoritarian (and antisemitic) nonsense. " that does not make any sense.

[racional]

So it's okay to silence this segment of the Jewish population, and deny them citizenship rights in Germany (of all places) if they are "seen as weirdos among other Jews"?

That's what you're advocating, apparently.

[snowpid]

This is just a rare edge case I guess it is worth ignoring it.

Also on the topic of Antisemitism I " trust " the local Jewish organisations and their opinion more than some stranger on HN.