[zbowling]

It's true that Linux has a stable-ish syscall table. What is funny is that this caused a whole series of Samsung Android phones to reboot randomly with some apps because Samsung added a syscall at the same position someone else did in upstream linux and folks staticly linking their own libc to avoid boionc libc were rebooting phones when calling certain functions because the Samsung syscall causing kernel panics when called wrong. Goes back to it being a bad idea to subvert your system libc. Now, distro vendors do give out multiple versions of a libc that all work with your kernel. This generally works. When we had to fix ABI issues this happened a few times. But I wouldn't trust building our libc and assuming that libc is portable to any linux machine to copy it to.

[cesarb]

> It's true that Linux has a stable-ish syscall table.

It's not "stable-ish", it's fully stable. Once a syscall is added to the syscall table on a released version of the official Linux kernel, it might later be replaced by a "not implemented" stub (which always returns -ENOSYS), but it will never be reused for anything else. There's even reserved space on some architectures for the STREAMS syscalls, which were AFAIK never on any released version of the Linux kernel.

The exception is when creating a new architecture; for instance, the syscall table for 32-bit x86 and 64-bit x86 has a completely different order.

[withinboredom]

I think what they meant (judging by the example you ignored) is that the table changes (even if append-only) and you don't know which version you actually have when you statically compile your own version. Thus, your syscalls might be using a newer version of the table but it a) not actually be implemented, or b) implemented with something bespoke.

[cesarb]

> Thus, your syscalls might be using a newer version of the table but it a) not actually be implemented,

That's the same case as when a syscall is later removed: it returns -ENOSYS. The correct way is to do the call normally as if it were implemented, and if it returns -ENOSYS, you know that this syscall does not exist in the currently running kernel, and you should try something else. That is the same no matter whether it's compiled statically or dynamically; even a dynamic glibc has fallback paths for some missing syscalls (glibc has a minimum required kernel version, so it does not need to have fallback paths for features introduced a long time ago).

> or b) implemented with something bespoke.

There's nothing you can do to protect against a modified kernel which does something different from the upstream Linux kernel. Even going through libc doesn't help, since whoever modified the Linux kernel to do something unexpected could also have modified the C library to do something unexpected, or libc could trip over the unexpected kernel changes.

One example of this happening is with seccomp filters. They can be used to make a syscall fail with an unexpected error code, and this can confuse the C library. More specifically, a seccomp filter which forces the clone3 syscall to always return -EPERM breaks newer libc versions which try the clone3 syscall first, and then fallback to the older clone syscall if clone3 returned -ENOSYS (which indicates an older kernel that does not have the clone3 syscall); this breaks for instance running newer Linux distributions within older Docker versions.

[withinboredom]

Every kernel I’ve ever used has been different from an upstream kernel, with custom patches applied. It’s literally open source, anyone can do anything to it that they want. If you are using libc, you’d have a reasonable expectation not to need to know the details of those changes. If you call the kernel directly via syscall, then yeah, there is nothing you can do about someone making modifications to open source software.

[saagarjha]

Generally, if you're patching the kernel you should coordinate with upstream if you care about your ABI.

[withinboredom]

I don’t think anyone is asking Linus for permission to backport security fixes to their own kernels… that’s ridiculous.

[saagarjha]

If your security fix alters the ABI it is almost always the case that this is done