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by capybara_2020 777 days ago
If profits and revenue are dropping. Isn't that an indication of harder times? Shouldn't they be saving money right now to invest more in their R&D to tide this over and continue growing?
3 comments

It's an indication of harder times in the past, not in the future. Management has specific information about what the future holds that we as investors do not

Also Apple doesn't have a cash issue. Companies that need to think about liquidity are those on the verge of bankruptcy, which isn't the case here. There's sufficient cash (from the Balance Sheet but also from Operating Cash every year) to fund R&D at Apple. Heck, if you divide their annual R&D spend ($29B in 2023) by the cash sitting on their balance sheet ($148B in 2023), they have enough cash today[1] to fund 5+ years worth of R&D without selling a single additional iPhone during that time

Buying back stock when the price drops is just taking advantage of the current situation to return capital to investors "cheaply".

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[1] Technically today = September 30, 2023, when they reported their 2023 10-K, if we're being pedantic. Both cash and R&D figures from that 10-K available here:

Ctrl+F "$148.3 billion as of September 30" for the cash balance and "Research and development" (there are multiple matches) for the $29B in R&D

$110B is a drop in the bucket for them though.
I saw in the news yesterday that someone was looking to buy Paramount for $26B or thereabouts. I hope they at least went through the thought exercise of whether this builds more value than five huge acquisitions that could strengthen their offerings.
Apple has done buybacks for a while though, it is only much larger now. I believe their historical buybacks were around the $25b.

Doing this buyback is an indication that the roic is not great enough and deem it better to give it back to shareholders. Huge acquisitions are neither easy or cheap, cheap in the sense of not only the multiple you are paying but also the costs downstream of having to take over that company.

> someone was looking to buy Paramount for $26B

Sony and Apollo Capitol 'expressed an interest'.

BigCorp buys BigCorp deals seem to be about consolidating the market to 1)reduce competition 2)raise prices 3)kill jobs = a)raise bonuses b)promise a higher stock value. Also synergy.

We'll get a pre-merger announcement about creating new jobs; biz media everywhere will excitedly amplify it.

Typically, the DoJ can't rubber stamp these deals fast enough but sometimes they balk - or at least pretend to.

Acquisitions tend to destroy value, especially "non core" acquisitions. I think they understand that not becoming a chaebol owning half the economy is actually a good idea.
It is common to "buy" a company using shares. That's why it's called Mergers & Acquisitions.
is it? don't they need money for the buyback? and they only have about $160b. what am I missing?
You tell me what am I missing. They had $17,645,500,000 in unlevered FCF last quarter. With $32,695,000,000 in Cash and CE on their balance sheet.

Edit: I see the gap now with your question. The buyback plan/funds are not executed all at once. A company approves amounts to be used for buybacks and then it happens over time. My point is that these buybacks are pretty normal for apple. You can look at Apples historical buyback plans and I think the last announced one was a year ago for $90b.

Dont be ridiculous that’s a huge percentage of their market cap
How is it ridiculous. Go look at their historical buyback plans.

2018 - $100b

2021 - $90b

2022 - $90b

2023 - $90b

2024 - $110b

Is it a large? Yes. Is it out of the normal for them? No. It is also not especially a difficult reach when looking at their existing cash/security balances and FCF.

>Shouldn't they be saving money right now to invest more in their R&D to tide this over and continue growing?

That is precisely what a stock buyback is. They could invest that cash on the open market, or return it to investors through dividends. Instead this sends it to the common pool to fund current business operations.

???

This returns money to investors just like dividends do (but it's better tax-wise).

>This returns money to investors in a way similar to dividends.

Not really, it only helps to prop up the stock price. It has no effect on actual yield the way dividends do.

From the company's perspective, dividends and stock buy backs are identical.

Say a company has 10 shares @ $10/share, w/ a total value of $100. The company has $10 to return to shareholders because it can't make better use of the money internally.

----Share buyback example------

- company buys back 1 share @ $10

- the company's value is decreases by $10 for having distributed the cash

- company now has 9 shares of stock at $10/share, for a total value of $90

-----Dividend example-----

- company distributes $1 to each shareholder

- the company's value is decreases by $10 for having distributed the cash

- company now has 10 shares of stock at $9/share, for a total value of $90

Yes really. It is less about "propping" and more about returning capital back to investor and doing it in a way that does not trigger a tax event.

- Buybacks are more tax efficient

- Buybacks can be a signal that the company thinks its current market price is undervalued.

- Can increase control to existing shareholders.

Sure, but that's all hypothetical. There is no law stating "higher EPS = higher share price". Stocks can (and do) still go down after a buyback. Whereas dividends are laid out exactly ahead of time and can be predicted.
Whats hypothetical about it? Nothing I said was hypothetical. The company is doing some math to determine that the roic is below their coc or some similar measurement. So they could pay a dividend or buyback shares. Now it is true that the motivations for either could have many reasons. It is also true that after the buyback happens, prices could go back down...it is a market with changing information constantly. So yes a dividend is not a buyback but they are both ways to return capital to shareholders.
The one thing it does not do with their cash on hand is "send it the common pool to fund current business operations."
Buybacks literally hands money to current investors. They can only buy shares from people who own shares Ie investors.

Individual investors get three options they can some shares and maintain the exact same percentage of the company making this equipment to a dividend, they can liquidate more shares which a guaranteed buyer propping up the price, or they can avoid selling shares and simply own more of the company. The final option is more tax efficient because there’s no taxable event unlike a dividend where you pay taxes before buying more stock.

You have misunderstood what a stock buyback is

It's effectively a dividend with different tax implications

It's not a dividend at all. A dividend gives the share holders money. This (potentially) increases the value of the share holders stocks. But the most important difference here is the Apple can sell these shares again if they need to later and they cannot get back the money they spend of dividends. If Apple feels that the market price of their stock is low and they have nothing better to do with the money then it makes sense to buy these shares.