[Intralexical]

Tell me more how GNOME are the real victims, and calling out the way y'all treat people is "Gish Galloping" "needless insults and generalizations" and "meaningless petty grievances". Words mean things, you know, and other people exist.

You hit 4 kilobytes in this defensive rant. And not a single word of empathy for anything you apparently don't personally identify with, not a single thought reflecting on the impact your conduct has on other people. Not a single spot of introspection wondering "Are we really right"?

....It really is endless, isn't it....?

[logicprog]

I think I'm done being a footstool for you to grandstand about what a great person you are from. You can find a different dance partner to virtue signal with.

[Intralexical]

I suppose I should be unsurprised that you would pretend that's what it's about. Assume everybody's as selfish and disingenuous as you, yeah.

[logicprog]

Perhaps you should do some introspection yourself into whether you are demonstrating empathy for people you don't personally identify with, neuroplacticity in defending your arguments, or the capacity to think about whether you might be wrong, by actually engaging with other people's reasons for not finding your evidence convincing, instead of merely assuming that all Right Thinking People would automatically agree with you. And then immediately resorting to abuse as soon as someone doesn't find your evidence as convincing as you apparently find it. Because that's what you did. Instead of explaining why the evidence you gave me was actually good, you just resorted to immediately abusing me and assuming I must be a terrible person for disagreeing with you. How dare I challenge your interpretation and valuation of the behavior and quotes given in your sources, right? Perhaps you should consider how your abusive[1] behavior impacts others.

[1]: https://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-projection

[Intralexical]

> actually engaging with other people's reasons for not finding your evidence convincing

> immediately resorting to abuse

Lmao:

> hyperbolic disingenuous bad faith nonsense.

> draws completely wild conclusions

> the same utter drivel

> tiresome, worn out, utterly stupid and wrong

> all I see are meaningless petty grievances over minor design disagreements

Nice "reasons".

And no, your 4KB rant about how System76 may or may not also do bad things, how much you hate people who want "meaningless things like app indicators and themes", how much you hate "the shit Android oems do", how GNOME may dictate "their own fucking desktop" but neither downstream distros nor upstream apps deserve the same autonomy, how KDE supposedly "just don't care" about themes (blatantly false, especially under TFA)— ad infinitum— None of that is is actually relevant to how GNOME treats people.

I have no desire to let you "infinitely increase the granularity of the discussion, so that the rhetorical burden on me just expands indefinitely and you can always bring up a new thing and say I haven't dealt with it". The point is how GNOME treats people, and (after your aggressive replies) how you treat people— not whether you can technically personally "explained at length why" it's "far better, in fact, than KDE or any other DE".

> Perhaps you should do some introspection yourself into whether you are demonstrating empathy for people you don't personally identify with

What exactly do you think I am doing, by hearing and listening to the concerns of groups as diverse as Budgie, Mint, Transmission, System76, Inkscape, Ubuntu, Wayland, Kernel, and Subsurface? I barely use like two of those projects Ftr; I sympathized with them only because they exist in the community and I feel for them as persons.

> [1]: https://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-projection

But of course, all those pesky other people are abstract to you. Only you are real to you.

***

8e5f4fa0e65f5118e493ec7e10c8c8c22473fd2e43336d5228e8a2f8d4f80d17

Say "Hi" to Tom Emmeness for me. The only ungrowing are the unliving.

[logicprog]

> Nice "reasons".

Yeah, if you ignore the reasoning I place right next to my evaluations and just quote the evaluations, it certainly looks like I don't have reasons. Very clever of you. Also, I don't think it's wrong or abusive for me to call something that is clearly hyperbolic, disingenuous, or bad faith hyperbolic, disingenuous, or bad faith. That's precisely what you've done to me, except better: because instead of actually arguing why I'm wrong about any of the things I'm saying, or trying to argue your case at all, you've just vaguely gestured at the data, falsely assuming that all reasonable people must agree on interpretations of the data, and then when I disagreed you labeled me with various things you thought applied to me, although while I described the sources themselves, you directed it at me.

> And no, your 4KB rant about how System76 may or may not also do bad things, how much you hate people who want "meaningless things like app indicators and themes", how much you hate "the shit Android oems do",

I don't hate those people simply for wanting those things at all, I just think that the way they are treating The Gnome developers is abusive and unacceptable, and that they are being entitled and disingenuous in their demands to have those things in someone else's project. That's pretty different. Like, in actuality, I recommend system 76 to all my friends and I'm huge fans of most of their work, I ran PopOS asked for quite some time, I just think they are being unfair in this case.

> but neither downstream distros nor upstream apps deserve the same autonomy,

Because downstream distros are not making their own desktop environment, they are using GNOME's desktop environment. You have to ignore that fact to believe I'm being inconsistent here.

> how KDE supposedly "just don't care" about themes (blatantly false, especially under TFA)

If you actually read my words instead of scanning them to look for things you could be angry about, in which case you would have actually noticed my reasons standing right beside the words that apparently made you just immediately see red, you would have also noticed that I didn't say KDE doesn't care about themes. TDE obviously does care about making it seeming possible and easy for people. Katie just doesn't care that themes, by their inherent nature, can break things occasionally. That was my point.

> None of that is is actually relevant to how GNOME treats people.

It is actually, because what I'm trying to show is that the demands and arguments of the people in the sources are fundamentally misguided, and that therefore their argument that the way gnome is treating them is unfair is unfounded. Also, I read through in detail all of your sources yesterday, from top to bottom, including all of the bug tracker exchanges and all of that, as well as several more posts on ignorant gurus website, and I never once saw an instance of The Gnome people responding with undo aggression or verbal abuse towards him even when he was continually trolling their bug tracker, meanwhile his entire block is filled with aggressive conspiratorial writing.

> I have no desire to let you "infinitely increase the granularity of the discussion, so that the rhetorical burden on me just expands indefinitely and you can always bring up a new thing and say I haven't dealt with it".

I'm not trying to infinitely increase the granularity of the discussion, I'm actually trying to have a discussion where reasons are exchanged and critiques, but all you seem to do is grandstand about morality without ever making an argument or anything of the sort.

> The point is how GNOME treats people, and (after your aggressive replies) how you treat people

Aggression is not a mark of being a bad or abusive person when it is in response to conspiratorial nonsense like ignorant Guru likes to spout. I wasn't the one who initiated this tone of the conversation, that was your first source and your own conspiratorial and aggressive lines about gnome. And I mean clearly you agree with me on that, since you responded with aggression to what you perceived as bullshit, as well, so I don't understand why we have this double standard where I can't do the same.

> only you are real to you

No, I can safely say I understand the frustration of the people that wrote the sources you're talking about, I just think the frustration is misdirected and based on unfair expectations. This is why I have a lot of Hope for Cosmic de , because it's actually designed for the sorts of things people want, so hopefully everyone can just move to it and leave gnome behind. Or just switch to kde, honestly, which seems to be what a lot of distros are doing now that there are starting to notice that gnome isn't actually a good basis for a distro branded and customized experience. I don't think failing to immediately agree with someone simply because they are frustrated or upset and say that they were ill served by someone is a failure of empathy if I think their assessment of the situation is wrong. Everybody has to use their own mind to evaluate the situation and decide for themselves what's happening, instead of taking the fact that some people are angry as evidence that they must be angry in the same direction too.

> Say "Hi" to Tom Emmeness for me. The only ungrowing are the unliving.

Well, one of us was trying to have a discussion about the sources and wanted to hear answers to their rationale for not finding them precisely convincing, and one of us is just assuming that everyone who is a right thinking good person will automatically agree with them and no more argumentation or discussion is necessary at all, so I think it's pretty clear who is the growing and who is the not growing among the two of us.