[sfink]

Huh. I'm not at all a fan of how Poettering operates, but it's neither the ideas nor the implementation where I'd fault him. Well, it depends on what you mean by implementation, I guess; I'm talking about the core "how does it do its thing", not the interface by which you use it.

I think Poettering has great ideas and great implementation. It's the execution and interface that are often terrible. If the square peg doesn't fit in the round hole, then he'll always say that the peg is perfect and the world just needs to chisel out the corners of the hole.

[sigil]

What do you mean by "great ideas and great implementation / bad execution and bad interface." Is this a plumbing vs porcelain distinction?

[sfink]

Yes? Well, partly.

For systemd and pulseaudio, the systems they were replacing legitimately had major problems. There were variants and workarounds that fixed some of these, but no holistic solution that I've ever heard of. There were just so many limitations if you maintained any degree of compatibility. People were (understandably) unwilling to start over and rearchitect something that desperately needed rearchitecting. Poettering designed and implemented replacements that were substantially better, and worked. Worked well, in fact. That's the great ideas & implementation part.

Much of this was enabled by a willingness to throw out compatibility with nearly everything. Backwards, forwards, sideways. If I were making a bold and breaking change like this, I would sacrifice compatibility but try to make up for it by bending over backwards to catch as much of the "once working, now broken" wreckage that inevitably piled up as I could, by creating shims and compatibility stubs and transition mechanisms. I'd certainly listen to people's problems and try to work out solutions.

Poettering, as far as I can tell is more of a honey badger (excuse the dated meme). He just doesn't give a shit. If your stuff doesn't work in the brave new world, then your stuff is broken and is going to have to adapt. That's the bad execution part. (Which is not to say that bending over backwards is always the right approach; it can massively increase the burden on the new system's implementer, to the point that it never happens. There's a reason why Poettering's stuff is taking over the world.)

As for bad interface, this is a lot more subjective, so it's easier to disagree. But the tools to configure and use the new system are done in the style of an isolated cathedral. The tools do a ton of stuff, but they do it all in a new way, and that's great once you learn the blessed paths and internalize the new architecture. But all of your existing knowledge is now useless, and you can't flexibly combine and extend the functionality with the usual tools you'd use (bash, grep, awk, find, sort, tee....) The main functionality of the new system is not new — none of this is really adding fundamental new capabilities, it's just improving things that were already being done. But the way you interface with that functionality is all new, even though it could have been exposed in ways at least a little more unix-like and composable. Instead, the tool author determines all the things you should be doing and gives you a way to do them. If you want more or different, then you're doing something wrong.

Normally, I'd expect something like this to die out as it rubbed up against the surrounding functionality. "Great system, but too much effort when we keep having to fix thing after thing." Surprisingly (to me), in systemd's case in particular, what has actually happened is that the cathedral just keeps expanding to swallow up enough of its surroundings to keep from being ejected.

Maybe it's sour grapes, but my guess is that this was only possible because the previous systems were so bad. esd was a nightmare. sysvinit scripts were baroque and buggy and error-prone. Sure, the first 80% was just plain simple shell scripting. But everything did the last 20% slightly differently or just punted. It was all buggy and idiosyncratic and failed intermittently. Supposedly some of the init system variants managed to corral it all together enough to do actual dependencies and get decent startup speed, but I never used such a system. And based on the quality of the init scripts I've seen from random packages, I'm guessing the successes only happened when a relatively small group of people wrote or repaired a metric shitload of init scripts by hand. And even then, systemd provides more in its base functionality set. Architecturally, it's really quite nice.

[throwaway7356]

> Much of this was enabled by a willingness to throw out compatibility with nearly everything. Backwards, forwards, sideways. If I were making a bold and breaking change like this, I would sacrifice compatibility but try to make up for it by bending over backwards to catch as much of the "once working, now broken" wreckage that inevitably piled up as I could, by creating shims and compatibility stubs and transition mechanisms. I'd certainly listen to people's problems and try to work out solutions.

You do realize that systemd was the only init system that offered distributions a migration path from the sysv-rc init scripts?

daemontools, s6, openrc, upstart all did not have this. systemd was the only system caring about migration and backward compatibility...

> Poettering, as far as I can tell is more of a honey badger

As far as I know, he was the only author of an alternative init system that, for example, did actually talk to distributions to understand which problems they have. Unlike the authors of most alternatives that don't give a shit (and in turn nobody gives a shit about their init). To this day you'll find the s6 author just claim "nobody needs feature X from an init" because they themselves might not need it.

[1oooqooq]

you have the wrong view point. he just have a different opinion than you.

he single handled managed to fool RH and all distros into turning Linux administration just like windows. systemctl list of services is so inspired by the atrocious windows' admin list of services (which have 3 fields supposed to describe the service, but they all just tell you the name again).

it's no wonder his reward was a job at Microsoft.

but again, he's good in all three aspects. you just disagree on building the torment Nexus that is putting Linux in the "standard certification" target for sysadmins.

[Analemma_]

I continue to be baffled at this widespread belief that Poettering somehow hoodwinked every single major Linux distro into accepting a shit product with, idk, hypnosis or something.

Is it not possible that systemd is simply better than the alternatives, and the distro owners are smart enough to notice that, instead of just wrapping themselves cultish mantras about The Unix Way and how anything which resembles a design used in Windows is bad by definition? Or could that not possibly be it and he must've used mind control magic.

[veidr]

Yes, it has always reminded me of the old "Apple just sells all those shiny devices because they're good at marketing" trope.

As if marketing alone could do that. Poettering does seem to be, to a casual observer, kind of a dick. Arrogant, dismissive of competing products... kind of like that other guy — also kind of a dick — who supposedly had that "reality distortion field" that hoodwinked all those poor saps into buying his phones.

There's no fucking way in hell you are able do that if the user base doesn't think the product is good. To those saying it, I always reply, "It may not be the product you want, but a shitload of people disagree with you, quite obviously."

I'm not personally a huge fan of the iPhone or systemd. But they are both clearly "the best" for the largest number of people. (And that is even clearer for systemd, as it doesn't cost hundreds or thousands of dollars more then the competing products.)

[1oooqooq]

never said that.

just that his vision was garbage, and everyone knows. but he stood by it. and nobody was putting the same energy he was to either offer better or stop it (rejecting bad ideas also take energy. see gnome deep dive into garbage as another example)

Linux is mostly made from scraps (eg Bluetooth and wifi entire stacks) or misguided but funded things. the age of scratching own itch is mostly gone

[kasabali]

> nobody was putting the same energy he was to either offer better or stop it

which was much easier thing to do, compared to an outsider, considering he was on Red Hat's payroll, along with the people (gnome/freedesktop crowd) he had need to convince

[superpatosainz]

It's inspired by Apple's launchd.

[1oooqooq]

only in it's a rewrite of the concepts from inetd but using dbus and abused for local services.

which is a big part, but not the one most people complains about.

the actual UX is very much windows like.