[Alupis]

> Reagan introduced zero tolerance policies. He usually chose the wrong approach

That doesn't seem to clear cut with the recent failed (and now backpedaling) experiments regarding decriminalization and legalization of most drugs.

[mholm]

The approach promised in Oregon failed because the original intent of the decriminalization was to also increase support for rehabilitation. This never ended up happening, so drug users were thrown back into the situations that got them into drugs in the first place, instead of being given a way out.

[NegativeLatency]

Those policies were not well funded or implemented, we should keep trying alternative solutions to the status quo.

In contrast to the "war on drugs" which has been extremely well funded, and implemented to the cost of our own liberties, tried for years and has not been successful either.

[Alupis]

> tried for years and has not been successful either.

What's the measurement for success?

It seems, from a casual observer's perspective, we have fewer people trying hard drugs when the consequences are strict and known. We have more people trying hard drugs when the consequences are removed.

Neither system will achieve 0% drug usage - so which policy results in fewer people trying hard drugs?

[Hasu]

> What's the measurement for success?

It's not "the number of people who try hard drugs", which isn't a particularly interesting or meaningful number (lots of people, including myself, try hard drugs but never end up hooked on them and are productive members of society).

Try "the amount of harm caused to society". The drug war destroys more lives than hard drugs. It's a policy failure.

[Alupis]

> The drug war destroys more lives than hard drugs. It's a policy failure.

Again, this does not seem as clear as you attempt to present it.

In areas with decriminalized hard drugs, drug usage dramatically increased. It has a direct impact on the lives of the users, and also secondary impacts on the lives of everyone around them and/or has to deal with them.

Drug usage is not the so-called "victimless" crime some position it as. It has a lot of effects on society as a whole.

[NegativeLatency]

Are you familiar with prohibition and its effects in the US?

It wasn’t successful and massively contributed to the proliferation of organized crime.

[Hasu]

> In areas with decriminalized hard drugs, drug usage dramatically increased. It has a direct impact on the lives of the users, and also secondary impacts on the lives of everyone around them and/or has to deal with them.

Absolutely. I'm no stranger to the impact of drug abuse, as I've had family and close friends become addicts.

Even so, the drug war is way worse. It adds violence and danger to drug use, making it more dangerous for users and those in their proximity. It increases policing and police militarization and violence. Punishments for possession destroy families and career prospects.

Every ounce of prevention bought by the drug war costs a pound of pain.

> Drug usage is not the so-called "victimless" crime some position it as. It has a lot of effects on society as a whole.

Responsible drug use is pretty victimless. Drug abuse has victims. But that's no different than alcohol, and banning that also caused way more harm than it prevented.

[neuronexmachina]

What does that have to do with treatment programs?

[Alupis]

Well, enforcement is a form of treatment - just not the form some might want.

We're trying the other way and failing right now. Perhaps we should figure out why...

[superb_dev]

Enforcement is not a form of treatment, regardless we've been trying enforcement since the 70s and it's been a disaster. Why would you want to double down on that?

[Alupis]

> Enforcement is not a form of treatment, regardless we've been trying enforcement since the 70s and it's been a disaster.

This is often said - but what do you actually mean by disaster? Hard drug usage is objectively lower in strict enforcement areas vs. non-enforcement areas like Portland was briefly.

[skhunted]

....but what do you actually mean by disaster?

Our prisons do a horrible job at rehabilitation. Our prisons themselves contain lots of drugs. Our prisons are, in my opinion, immorally run. As a nation we believe in retribution and are fine with prison rapes and other abuses that occur there.

The drug war has been a disaster in terms of cost/benefit regarding how much we've spent on it. It's been a disaster in terms of civil liberties. We Americans like to think we are free but walking around with $10,000 in cash will, if found out by police, result in it being seized. Civil asset forfeiture has caused many innocent people to be punished. It has been a disaster in terms of our national incarceration rate. Incarceration for drugs targets poor and minorities. Rich people rarely go to jail for drug use. For example, Rush Limbaugh got a fine and drug treatment.

[superb_dev]

There is a lot that I could talk about, but America's prison population comes to mind first. America has the largest prison population in the world, and they're essential a slave class. They get fewer rights and are forced to work for whatever company wants their labor.

[asveikau]

It's more like the stuff that doesn't work is being pushed again.

[Alupis]

On it's surface it seems to have worked better than these experiments. Otherwise the experiments would not be getting rolled back...

There's very few if any fans of what played out in Portland, for instance. Overt drug usage exploded and became a much worse problem. The exact opposite of what proponents had hoped.

Some will say "but they didn't do it right" or similar - tired arguments we hear every time pet policies fail.

[NegativeLatency]

This is a very un-nuanced take on what happened in Portland, and lines up with what the uncritical and uninformed national reporting about Portland has been saying.

It was not successful, but it was also never effectively funded, not implemented well, and rolled out in a rush.

[andsoitis]

Bad execution undermines otherwise good policy.

Ideas don’t execute themselves and when someone doesn’t deliver the goods, it is human nature to question their decision making ability in the first place.

Being defensive or arguing nuance is fine in theory, but in practice bad outcomes tend to reinforce biases.

I would prefer fully baked ideas that are rigorous and practical rather than purely utopian and just hoping for the best. One does not roll out underfunded programs that play with safety and health.

[Alupis]

And... when dealing with humans - policies are often not enacted like we thought they would be in our head's under ideal conditions.

Policies are implemented by politicians and government drones, are beholden to budgets and meandering political sentiment of the population, etc. ie - they will never be implemented "correctly" - so we should pick the policies that are the hardest to get wrong and/or have the least negative side effects.

[Alupis]

> It was not successful, but it was also never effectively funded, not implemented well, and rolled out in a rush.

So... like almost every government program? What makes you convinced it can actually be achieved in reality? With real people, real politicians, real budgets that get robbed for other pet projects down the line...

Even if it was achieved in reality - let's pretend to wave a magic wand - what is the expected outcome? Fewer people doing hard drugs than before? That seems difficult to accept given all consequences will effectively be removed... how many celebrities (with effectively unlimited resources) struggle their entire lives with drug abuse - in and out of rehab, etc. It seems it's better to prevent people from becoming addicts in the first place, vs. attempt to treat/mitigate addiction after it has formed.

[NegativeLatency]

> What makes you convinced it can actually be achieved in reality?

It may never be achieved, regardless of my or your personal views on the subject at hand I think reasonable people can agree if you try and do something but do it poorly, and it doesn't work, that's not necessarily a failure of the thing but more a failure of the execution.

ex: I'm bad at welding so therefore welding is not a good way to hold two pieces of metal together, is an invalid/incorrect conclusion.

[asveikau]

You strike me as the type of person who doesn't know that US urban crime decreased in 2023.

The novel thing in world of illicit drugs is that fentanyl is very hard to dose correctly, so death rates are higher than before. That new fact on the scene makes long term comparisons difficult. But, I would say given the dropping crime rates of the last 40 years, we're doing better than the previous waves of "tough on crime" policy including drug wars from the 1980s and 1990s, despite incarcerating a lot fewer people. So I think these "experiments" absolutely are working. That effectiveness may however be overshadowed by the specific dangerousness of fentanyl in the illicit market.