[paulryanrogers]

Restraining orders are a thing for a reason. It's cheaper to harass someone out of business (intentionally or otherwise) than to compete on a level playing field.

Being a good neighbor requires restraining oneself and making requests with consideration for the other party.

Full disclosure: I worked for a price monitoring service that prided itself on crawling up to every 3 hours. Steps were always taken to mitigate the impact. Sometimes even asking hosts to allow-list the crawlers.

[jMyles]

> Restraining orders are a thing for a reason.

Sure, but for the purposes of this conversation, saying "for a reason" regarding a function which is presently delegated to the state is fraught with all sorts of future-proofing concerns.

It seems to me that, as a baseline, we have to agree to observe the apparent trend of the internet to supplant the state - to resist its censorship and influence almost entirely - as an indicator that our long-term thinking needs to put those relatively few state functions which are essential to a peaceful society (such as restraining orders) in the purview of the internet... somehow. Maybe that will prove to be unnecessary, but in the case that the state fades, we'll be happy we had the foresight.

Internet traffic is barely (and arguably, already not) under human control as it is. And in another century, it will almost certainly be impossible to tell the machines 'enhance your calm or else'. Or else what?

I agree wholeheartedly about your qualities of good neighbor roles. But I don't think they extrapolate the way you think they do.

Consider this: at every moment, your house - your literal dwelling - is bombarded with high-level, semantic radio traffic, from way down where the messages bounce off the ionosphere all the way up to 10GHz and beyond. But this doesn't bother you. You ignore what you don't need! You draw boundaries and personally work on strengthening them - with the help of your friends and neighbors.

The internet needs help taking this shape at the application layer (and really, at all layers). And that part is up to us. We can't just throw our hands up and say "<legacy state function> exists for some reason, doesn't it?"

[paulryanrogers]

The government is our tool for regulating society when self regulation fails. It may be a blunt instrument and a last resort. Yet there is a place for it. We cannot entirely outsource all boundaries to individuals and private institutions.

I agree it would be ideal if the Internet could be as opt-in and benign as you suggest. Though I'm not even sure such an architecture is possible. How do you drive down the cost of listening and filtering to near zero whilst still allowing the desired signal?

And even if it were possible, consider that we do rely on governments to regulate the limited radio spectrum that we all have to share. Otherwise it wouldn't be an option to opt in to. The signal would be drown out by whomever has the strongest transmitters.

[jMyles]

> The government is our tool for regulating society when self regulation fails. It may be a blunt instrument and a last resort. Yet there is a place for it. We cannot entirely outsource all boundaries to individuals and private institutions.

I don't know who "our" refers to here, but if humans are evolving into "the internet", or however you want to think of this creature which is emerging over the course of this century (and appears wont to accelerate over the next few centuries), then I don't think the state is "ours". We can't just cover our eyes when presented with the proclivity of the internet not to tolerate the state.

> I agree it would be ideal if the Internet could be as opt-in and benign as you suggest. Though I'm not even sure such an architecture is possible. How do you drive down the cost of listening and filtering to near zero whilst still allowing the desired signal?

Cryptography.

> And even if it were possible, consider that we do rely on governments to regulate the limited radio spectrum that we all have to share. Otherwise it wouldn't be an option to opt in to. The signal would be drown out by whomever has the strongest transmitters.

...really? Do you really believe that the state is a force for coordination and openness in radio?

The only bands which reliably continue to have these characteristics are the amateur bands, which have been defended by users for decades against constant encroachment by a state which, if it had its druthers, would've sold these bands to AT&T a long time ago.

My sense is that, if the government thought we weren't watching, they'd simply cancel the amateur radio license program. It is people standing to be counted (by taking the test) that keeps these bands viable _despite_ the FCC, not the other way around.