[pc86]

At the risk of engaging in what I'm sure will be a very even-headed and reasonable dialogue, I can think of a handful of things that the moderate American left would do / agree on that the more extreme elements would not. And just because you have to bend over backwards to avoid getting shadowbanned or flagged for even mentioning any of these, I'm not telling anyone where I stand on any of these things. Some I agree with, some I don't. It doesn't matter.

    1. Israel has a right to exist and should not just pack up and leave Gaza.
    2. Children who are not old enough to get a loan are also not old enough to consent to surgery or hormone blockers.
    3. If you transition from male to female you should not be allowed to participate in women's sports.
    4. Women's pro athletes getting paid a fraction of what male pro athletes do is a function of supply and demand and is not inherently sexist.
    5. There are root causes to the disproportionate incarceration of African Americans that do not boil down to "the system is racist."
    6. Taxes should be used to raise revenue in order to provide social and other government services, not as punishment.

None of those positions are inherently conservative and all of them could be held by a popular mainstream Democratic member of Congress or Presidential candidate. All of them (or any of them if voiced loudly enough) would get you ostracized from leftist group.

[k8svet]

With those framings, you don't really need to tell us much more.

[runarberg]

As a person firmly in the American political left, I have to disagree with all but one of those (point 6 holds true).

1. If you don’t want Israel’s genocidal war against Gaza to stop, you are not a leftist.

2. If you don’t want trans children to get correct healthcare, you are not a leftist.

3. If you want to discriminate against LGBTQ+ people, you are not a leftist.

4. If you don’t want to fix the gender wage gap, you are not a leftist.

5. If you hold racist views, you are not a leftist.

6. The radical left has many different views on taxes. I want to eat the rich, but many on the left do indeed want taxes only to be used as funding of social services.

I’m aware I’m committing No true Scotsman fallacy here. However I don’t see people that hold these views to align anywhere close to me politically—not even moderately. On the left we call people that hold these views conservative democrats, and at best we call them centrists, never moderate leftists. The only people that call them “moderates” are the conservative democrats them selves (and maybe some republicans).

I’m also aware that there is a (very small) faction of communists and tankies, particularly in the UK, which holds anti-trans and racist views, and would agree with points 2, 3, and 5, however, even among communists, they are very niche and still very extreme, so definitely not moderate American left.

[dev_by_day]

The beautiful thing about about groups and diversity is you don't get to decide who is and isn't a leftist. Many would say the same about you given how polarizing your being.

You have literally zero legitimacy or authority to define what leftism is, it doesn't belong to you.

[runarberg]

I did admit to blatantly commit the No true Scotsman fallacy. Deciding who does and doesn’t belong in you political faction is ultimately going to result in arbitrary distinction and characterization.

Me as a leftist does not want to be politically aligned with anti-LGBTQ+, anti-feminists, and racists. These aren’t a moderate versions of my and my comrade political beliefs (except the 6th one), they are counter to them. So, as a radical leftist, I do disavow these claims, and don’t want them anywhere near me on the political spectrum.

[dev_by_day]

I do very much appreciate that within the spectrum of the american left/liberals we have those view points.

Edit: to clarify i mean the view points that disagreed with the 6 up above.

I would never want to be in a monoculture where those view points are censored or shut down. It has unfortunately become more common in authoritarian states and even peaceful protests here on campuses.

[dev_by_day]

Sorry to clarify I meant I appreciate the view points you posted by "those", not the ones prior to it(hence i mentioned college campuses in reference to pro-Palestine protests)

[difficil]

One problem with this perspective is that the American left has adopted some views that a real leftist would have some disagreement with.

Point 1 is picking a side in an ongoing war in which both side have committed many atrocities. A real leftist would acknowledge this and seek an end to the conflict in solidarity with the victims on both sides. And consider that for a war that is mostly led by groups of aggressive men, the main victims of this are women and children.

Point 2 should be considered in the context of for-profit healthcare providers and their aim of maximising profit and creating repeat customers. There is a huge conflict of interest with many of those promoting their particular idea of "correct healthcare", as they profit off it. A real leftist would give much critical consideration to the capitalist and consumerist nature of the cosmetic surgeries and pharmaceutical interventions that are used in an attempt to make individuals appear to be the opposite sex.

Point 3 is something real leftists certainly do agree on but also to acknowledge there is a conflict of rights when it comes to single-sex spaces, and that it's important to listen to left-wing feminist voices on this topic rather than cede the discussion to meet the demands of males who desire to use female spaces.

Points 4, 5 and 6 do match up with the views of real leftists.

[pc86]

You can be liberal / on the left and not be a leftist. Being extreme on the left should be viewed as negatively as it is to be extreme on the right. Extreme opinions of any kind are not conducive to living with people whose beliefs differ from yours.

I mean in another comment you refer to yourself as "a radical leftist" so that sort of proves my point. The points above can be held by liberal, left-of-center politicians who have a chance at holding national political office in the US. Mainstream Democrats, or at least what used to be a mainstream Democrat 10 years ago.

[runarberg]

So lets zoom in on point 5 on your list:

> There are root causes to the disproportionate incarceration of African Americans that do not boil down to "the system is racist."

To claim that there are other root causes then systematic racism behind mass incarceration of black people, is placing a lot of heavy lifting on the other. It is reasonable to assume that a person holding this belief means “cultural” or, worse, “biological”. In either case, it is a racist view to hold. A conservative democrat can hold this belief, and many indeed do, however, they cannot claim to be leftists at that point, and most actually don’t. They may call them selves “moderate democrats” but I’ve never heard them call them selves “moderately left” (I’m willing to admit I’m wrong here if shown otherwise).

The leftist belief here is that systematic racism exists, and is the reason black people are disproportionately incarcerated. To reject this belief, isn’t a moderate version of the traditional leftist belief. It is counter to it. Therefor, if you reject the existence of systematic racism, you are not a moderate leftist, you simply aren’t a leftist.

[pc86]

I never claimed a leftist could or would hold any of these views. To the contrary I'm pointing out that leftism is such a fringe minority belief structure in the US that you can be a wildly popular mainstream Democrat, have a change at being elected President, and have the types of beliefs above and still have most of the country be more conservative to you.

From the very first comment:

> > > > I can think of a handful of things that the moderate American left would do / agree on that the more extreme elements would not

> > > > any of [these beliefs] ... would get you ostracized from [a] leftist group.

You prove both of my points beautifully in this thread as well as my new one that leftism is a radical fringe belief system when you say even suggesting there might be any other cause than racism for #5 is itself racism.

I never said anything was "a moderate version of a leftist belief," I'm not sure where exactly you got that.