[fizfaz]

> The sheer oddity + lack of real world example code floating around made it feel impenetrable

not sure if I understand you, but you have the code of the whole system at your fingertips. Which is certainly "real world" because you are running it :)

[em-bee]

real world example means end user applications, not developer tools. i want to see how an application looks like that my mother could use, or that i could sell to my customer. websites. desktop applications that hide the IDE...

[igouy]

Your applications would look however you wanted them look.

https://pharo.org/success/

[em-bee]

that's not the question. we are looking for examples that come with source that can be studied.

the success page lists 53 projects. only one of them came with a direct link to the source. one included an un-clickable link. one linked to a non-english website where i could figure out that it was licensed under the LGPL, but i could not find the link to the source.

a surprise was that DrGeo which is known to be Free Software links to a dead website. grafoscopio which i also believe to be FOSS as well has a dead download link on its website.

several other projects had dead links too.

the only source i found was for

HoneyGinger: https://github.com/tomooda/HoneyGinger

OpenPonk https://github.com/OpenPonk

and record: https://github.com/estebanlm/record (7 years old)

btw, DrGeo is here: https://github.com/hilaire/drgeo

that is three source examples under active development

for a project as old and as large as pharo is that is surprisingly little.

more accessible source examples are needed to attract developers. especially given the difficulty to get used to the pharo developer tools.

i have actively explored working with pharo. i just could not find any useful apps that i could use and contribute to. and i had no ideas for an app that i'd be interested enough to create from scratch.

for a while i even tried to use it as a desktop and used an app that provides a commandline inside pharo.

the primary problem was that upgrading to a new version of pharo each year was difficult. given the image based development you tend to start with a current version of pharo and then keep to that version until you are done.

[igouy]

> i have actively explored working with pharo.

Then you must already know more than me, about what's available now.

Too much? https://github.com/feenkcom/gtoolkit

> … given the image based development you tend to start with a current version of pharo and then keep to that version until you are done.

I think of it as image based development: not image based version control.

[em-bee]

what do you mean by image based version control?

i mean the lack of version control inside the image can be considered a problem, as you have to connect to external tools go get it, lest you save a copy of the image as a version (which is what i would call image based version control), which that is not practical at all.

but that is not what i meant. i was talking about the problem that when i develop an application in pharo 11, but then i want to move the development to pharo 12, that amounts to a lot of work, so i don't do it but i'll stick to pharo 11 until my app is done.

[igouy]

> that amounts to a lot of work

Why? Are you making a lot of changes that conflict with the distro?

"Guideline 120 Avoid modifying the existing behavior of base system classes." :-)

1996 Smalltalk with Style page 95

https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/FreeBooks/WithStyle/Smallt...