[xpe]

Thanks. I just read [1].

> Whether the net benefit is good or bad is largely a subjective matter of political opinion.

Without knowing the intention of the author above, when I see the phrase "subjective matter of political opinion", it makes me wonder if it serves as a "semantic stop sign" or "thought-terminating cliché"[2].

WRT net benefits... it is one thing to have differing predictions about what will happen and quite another to assess each possible scenario.

I recognize differences of opinion and want a society that protects the freedoms to have them. However, to me, opinions matter much less than reasonable claims based on evidence. Luckily, when reading [1], there are many testable claims embedded in the arguments of the various justices.

For example, in the cases of an ambiguous law, who is better suited to understand the ambiguity... agency experts or judges? Which groups have better knowledge of the domain? Which have experience in engaging in sustained discussions with the industries they are regulating? Agencies have an objective advantage for both.

Here is my point: say we go through the, say, top twenty arguments and we dig into the details. I predict that most opinions one hears at the outset from the public don't survive contact with reality. Those opinions have to get tossed. What remains? Nuanced assessments of better and worse scenarios. By making these assessments more nuanced, the hope is we find workable and sensible compromises.

[1] https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/01/supreme-court-likely-to-d...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_cliché

[adastra22]

We live in a representative democracy where the powers of the government are constrained by constitutional law to be specific and enumerated, and aside from common-law precedent derive from a mandate by the people. Yet it is increasingly the case that the actual rules which citizens and corporations are required to follow are being set not by elected representatives but by unelected bureaucrats of government agencies, in some cases where there isn't even relevant and specific congressional authorization for action. In the case of TFA, the abolition of non-competes is something I can be 100% behind... but where is the specific law passed by congress authorizing the FTC to make and enforce this determination?

One side will say with some justification that these rules make sense and are definitely a net benefit, and we should expect this to be the case because the agency is run by technocrat experts who evaluate these policy decisions for a living and do a far better job than we can expect of even the best congressional staffers.

The other side will point out that it's a very fine line between the current, mostly harmless rule-setting actions of benevolent agency experts, and an unelected deep state that can become a tool of fascist ideologues. Our freedom is dependent on safeguarding our democracy, and that means no rules that don't trace their core to laws passed by elected representatives. These people would point to the disastrous actions of the DEA and FDA, for example, which is currently waging war on ADHD patients via the artificial Adderall shortage, or Operation Choke Point (google it).

Where you fall on this debate is a subjective matter of political opinion. There are pros and cons to both sides.

[xpe]

> Our freedom is dependent on safeguarding our democracy, …

Yes, I agree.

> and that means no rules that don't trace their core to laws passed by elected representatives.

I think this is too strong of a claim. Why?

We live under many rules that don’t trace back to laws elected by elected representatives. Many of our laws descend from common law which predates representative democracy.

Not to mention that there are tremendous sources of power outside one’s governmental sphere that constrain our options, such as culture, corporations, and other governments. Whether one calls these “rules” or “constraints” is sort of beside the point when you focus on a society’s ability to respond to undesirable forces. This leads to how I would restate your claim…

Perhaps a more accurate statement would be this: freedom depends on mechanisms such that the people can drive policy.

[xpe]

You say some things that make sense to me, but then you use the phrase “waging war”…

> FDA, for example, which is currently waging war on ADHD patients via the artificial Adderall shortage

Why do you choose this loaded language? This does not build credibility in my eyes. War means something, and it not that.

[xpe]

Sorry for the typo. I meant "War means something, and it is not that". By "that" I mean the above claim that what the FDA is doing (or not doing) is some kind of war.

I don't mean to split hairs nor imply that I alone get to decide what words mean. But I do have good reasons to suggest that words matter and that we should pay attention to them.

I am saying that rational people seeking truth strive not to use phrases "waging war" in a spirit of rationally discussing an issue. The way it is used above doesn't shine light on the core issue. The phrase invites tribalism and gut reactions rather than reason.

At the very least, such a phrase (1) presumes intention; and (2) assigns blame. These are two additional claims beyond the claim of harm to people with ADHD. I think one can make a decent argument about how agencies with too much authority can cause harm without invoking the war metaphor. Invoking that metaphor makes it harder to discuss the issues that seems to be driving this (interesting) discussion. I would frame that issue broadly as: (A) To what degree do agencies have legal and rational authority to clarify ambiguous laws? (B) Given what we know about human nature and organizations, what are some possible downstream outcomes?

Again, I'm making the case that a sentence like "But people have different opinions", when offered in the sense of e.g. "and that's all we can really say about that" is a disservice to understanding. As I see it, we have much necessary work to do that has nothing to do with pointing to differences of opinion. I think we need more substantive truth-seeking. If we engage in that fully, yes, differences of opinion will remain, but they will likely be applied to more nuanced aspects of the issue. This would be a good thing. It would help us talk in clearer ways.

I hope you can see that I am not dismissing rational claims of harm. I am instead expressing concern about the rhetoric used.

If you find yourself disagreeing with me, it might help to know that (i) I generally push back against moral relativism. Also (ii) I don't assign moral worth to mere opinions. I assign moral worth to people and their well-being, not merely to any and all electrochemical fluctuations that we call thoughts and beliefs. To summarize, I respect the ability of people to have opinions, but I don't give those opinions some kind of fundamental moral weight.

Why? Many such opinions are unconnected with reality. Sometimes, they don't even make sense _for them_; i.e. for their own self-interest! Moreover, enlightened people who pay attention to their own thoughts can notice this -- it is not something I have to impose on them.

[adastra22]

I didn’t choose that language. The “war on drugs” is the DEA’s own marketing.

[xpe]

I grant that the DEA deserves scrutiny for its handling of the Adderall manufacturers. [1]

[1] https://reason.com/2024/02/26/dea-shuts-down-drug-factory-ev...

Stepping back (hopefully to clear the air), I hope you can see this: it is hard for others to tell when you are using a phrase sarcastically to criticize some other party's usage of the same phrase.

Aside: unfortunately, the use of "war" as in "war on drugs" often corresponds with armed conflict... though to my knowledge, this is not a recognized problem with amphetamine mixed salts.

[adastra22]

War on Drugs.

War on Poverty.

War on Cancer.

America just loves war metaphors. I think you're reading too much into it.

https://www.hoover.org/research/rise-war-metaphor-public-pol...

[xpe]

I’m aware. I am hoping to persuade it is better to not abuse the word as well. How we choose to frame things can help promote useful conversation or hinder it.

I’m detecting an argument that “other people muddle words, so I can too”. Yikes. Can ain’t the same thing as should.

Maybe I should be more specific: The words you wrote can be easily read as a crackpot suggestion that the FDA is seeking to actively harm people with ADHD. (I write this now after having reread the source comment.)

Cancer doesn’t know we are at war with it; neither does poverty. There is no one we can kill to solve these problems. Instead, hopefully, we are seeking understanding of science and human nature so that we can reduce these problems.

Anyhow, I can’t tell if any of my main logical arguments have gotten through, which is a symptom of a bad conversation in my eyes at least. I don’t view this as a debate —- rather as a process of understanding.

[xpe]

For what it is worth, in my comments I am attempting to put aside any subjective assessment of the noncompete ban being good or bad. I am very interested in the rational basis for the FTC having the authority to do it (or not).

[Jiro]

>For example, in the cases of an ambiguous law, who is better suited to understand the ambiguity...

"Understanding the ambiguity" is fine if we are talking about trying to figure out what was intended by the people who put the ambiguous phrases in. But the issue isn't about who can "understand" the ambiguity, it's about who's going to be making things up and giving the ambiguity as an excuse. Asking whether bureaucrats or judges are better at "understanding the ambiguity" is the wrong question--understanding something and doing it are very different things. They'd just understand that the law is supposed to be X, and give a spurious justification about it being Y instead anyway.

Your use of phrases like "thought-terminating cliche" makes you sound like a rationalist. In which case I hope you know what a quokka is. (For the uninitiated, a quokka is an animal that can't understand that someone might want to hurt it.) If someone has an agenda that is against your interests, having "better knowledge" and being "better suited to understand" and "having experience" just makes it easier for them to harm you.

[xpe]

Yes, I agree. Understanding the ambiguity is not the only criteria.

My comment two levels up was not a comprehensive assessment of the pros and cons of this policy issue. My goal was to highlight that while I recognize subjective opinions, I care about them relatively less until we fully pursue rational means of understanding.