[tptacek]

What part of "it's not extra cash" is so hard for people to understand? It's not extra. The labor market for restaurant servers in the US is organized around the idea of tipping.

Think of tipping instead as a commission, except instead of the provider paying it, the customer pays. When a car salesman moves a car, we don't think of his commission as an "extra". Base pay for car salespeople is commensurately reduced on account of commissions.

[peetahb]

Just because it's organized around the idea of tipping, does not justify the notion that it's not extra cash coming out of the customer's pocket. I'm not against tipping, I just find it idiotic that people have this notion that just because it's part of tradition and part of the system that it's not considered "extra cash". Tipping is extra cash that the customer is footing, so that the employer doesn't have to pay extra for the labor behind the service. Once again, not against tipping.

And when it comes to commissions, the employer adds it on top of your wage, keyword: employer.

[tptacek]

It's "extra cash coming out of the customers pocket" in the same sense as the wine markup is "extra cash coming out of the customers pocket", or the corkage fee is "extra cash coming out of the customers pocket". You don't get to not pay the wine markup or the corkage fee.

But, ironically, solely because you do have the option of not paying the tip, the expectation of tipping is a terrible injustice to consumers.

Baffling.

[peetahb]

You're totally misconstruing my words. I am not against tipping or feel that it's an injustice that servers expect a tip, hell, I've done almost every grimy job in the restaurant business; but what I'm saying is that a server feeling entitled to that tip is bullshit. It instills this notion of "pay me extra for doing my job", not "pay me extra for doing more than I had to at my job". It has nothing to do with consumers feeling an injustice because their servers expect a tip, it seriously has nothing to do with consumers. It has everything to do with a server's mentality that doing your job is enough to warrant a tip.

(I'll choose to ignore the condescension)

[tptacek]

When the market arranges itself to pay servers 10-15% less than what the prevailing rate would be without tipping, the market is saying that servers are entitled to tips just for doing their job.

It is indeed true that servers expect a 15% tip simply in exchange for competently performing their job. So do their employers, and so do the majority of restaurant patrons.

I'm very unlikely to ever end up eating in a restaurant with you. I mostly do not care whether you tip or not. But the parallels between this thread and threads about software pricing are spooky: it's as if the part of the brain that enables most people to understand pointers-to-pointers and function pointers somehow cancels out some of the part of the brain that enables people to intuit how markets work.

Suffice it to say I am geeking out over this issue, not moralizing about it. Although: there's a moral component, and as a message board nerd, I'll pitch a little fit if we pretend that there isn't one. :)

[peetahb]

And the injustice is in the system itself. An employer that decides to pay 10-15% less because that's how the market has arranged it to be is bullshit.

I'm not saying I don't understand how the market works, I just like to call bullshit when I see it. The market shouldn't be structured in the way that employers can excuse themselves for paying a less than a competitive wage, just because it's an accepted system.

In contrary to my opinions on "expecting/feeling entitled to a tip", I always pay 20%, just because I feel like it.

And I definitely agree, there's a large moral component to it.

[tptacek]

I disagree that it's bullshit. In practice, servers (except when serving European tourists) tend to profit from the tipping arrangement. The mere fact that some of the responsibility for paying has been shifted to the customer isn't intrinsically unjust. And, it has benefits to small-business restaurant owners.

I (1) totally agree that reasonable people can disagree about whether restaurant tipping is an economically optimal scheme for compensating front of the house labor. I (2) have a little more trouble conceding that there's "bullshit" involved. I (3) have a lot of problems with the idea that it's reasonable to opt out of the tipping system by simply not tipping (not that you've suggested that, but others here have).

[chc]

The idea isn't "Pay me extra for doing my job" — it's "Pay me a standard tip if I do my job competently, pay me extra if I go above and beyond, or underpay me if I really suck." Think of it as part of the meal's price being contingent on acceptable service, because that's really more what it's like. Viewing it as "extra" is just intentionally working yourself up by categorizing things weirdly.