[yareal]

A lot of neurological development happens between 18 and 24, college is not just a practical skills education, it's also a space you're allowed to practice being an adult while that neurological development happens.

Ideally everyone can go to college and the costs are manageable and the counselors there help people understand what their degrees might be worth to them at the end of the process.

[caseysoftware]

> A lot of neurological development happens between 18 and 24, college is not just a practical skills education, it's also a space you're allowed to practice being an adult while that neurological development happens.

If true, asking people to make potentially catastrophic life-changing decisions prior to then is risky for them and predatory by the person asking.

And if we follow that reasoning, we have to reconsider many things we allow/ask sub-24yo's to do and provide them a way to prove they are able to make those decisions.

[nradov]

That hardly seems like an ideal. Many people, perhaps the majority, are simply not suited to college.

While I am aware of the research on neurological development I think some people are too ready to use that as an excuse for immature behavior. When Horatio Nelson was 19 he was already the commanding officer of a warship, leading men in combat and doing a pretty good job of it. And I don't believe he was really unique; many young people are capable of taking on adult responsibilities when necessity thrusts it upon them.

[brodouevencode]

Why would you take on any debt especially given that there's a chance you're not neurologically developed enough to understand the risks?

[yareal]

I mean, I'm out here saying college should be a public service that everyone gets and we all fund because it's a net good for our society for young adults. I don't think it should require debt at all.

[randomdata]

> it's a net good for our society for young adults.

Nearly 70% of Canadians 24-35 have a post-secondary degree and is considered the most educated nation in the world. For comparison, only 51% of Americans and 37% of Germans have the same. The trend is the same when expanding out to the entire population.

What net good is found in Canada that is not seen in the USA and especially Germany to the same degree? It is not economic. Canada is quite poor, comparatively. It does not appear to be political. Germany is considered much more democratic than Canada (Canada beats the USA, granted). It does not appear to be in, say, happiness. Canada is unhappier than both Germany and the USA. Cost of living? Haha. Don't even try to talk to Canadians about that. You will make them cry. Maybe health? Canada does seem to be more healthy than the other two. But is still not as healthy as many other countries that are less educated, so I'm not sure we're actually seeing any correlation there. I'm not sure there is correlation, let alone causation, in any of these cases.

So what is it? Let's say we implement your plan. What measures are we using to ensure that it is and remains a net good?

> I don't think it should require debt at all.

Indeed, it shouldn't. The idea that it requires debt is built on a false premise.

The utility of college can only be useful after you have established a clear goal and need to engage in research to achieve your desired result. Young people who haven't yet contributed anything to the world lack that. Interestingly, it turns out that those who are truly ready for college and those who have already saved up for college by way of productive efforts on the way to finding a meaningful goal are the same set. The reality is that debt isn't needed if college is to be used for the role it claims to serve.

But, let's be honest, the only reason most people go to college is to access a curated dating market. Here, there is something to be said about the people being 18 years old and not 45. Now, you might argue that should produce a net good (more children being born), but the data shows that is not the case[1]. In fact, once people get the uninhibited college sex (with protection) out of their system, it seems they are less likely to have children.

[1] In fairness, there is the perspective that fewer children born domestically with more immigration is the greater good. But at the same time these nations will only accept top immigrants, not any old random Joe who wants to emigrate, which is quite bad for the countries losing those people. As such, I am not sure this take is being honest.

[yareal]

To be fair, I genuinely don't know how to measure "is capable independent without trauma". I was independent at around 14, but that was due to having to survive trauma. My path was awful and I carry scars. I'd love for kids to have a space where they learn to work, pay rent and bills, navigate social environments, balance their budgets, learn and meet obligations, etc. But I don't know how to measure it.

[nanolith]

As a counterpoint to this, I went to college in my late twenties. I did this specifically to resolve some gaps in my knowledge regarding higher mathematics instead of getting a degree. It's certainly possible to self-study math, but the classes covered exactly what I needed at the time.

Anyway, what I noticed is that most of my classmates simply weren't equipped to study or pass these classes. It wasn't for a lack of skills: they went through the motions as they were taught. It was a problem of maturity. I was approaching these classes as a way to gain valuable knowledge. To them, it was a means to a nebulous end (obtain a degree). Their maladaptive behaviors, which got them through public school, were simply not scaling for harder subjects.

I got As, often perfect scores, on my tests. This is because I studied and did the work. I wanted to be there, and I wanted to excel, because I needed that knowledge. Credit hours were some silly "degree points" metric I didn't care about, because I didn't really care about getting a degree at that point. I was paying out of pocket to be there. I wasn't racking up debt or burning through a grant / scholarship to be there.

Empathy is another thing that gets stronger as our prefrontal cortexes mature. Our mirror neurons deepen as we get older. So, I took pity on these folks. It wasn't really their fault. From my perspective, they went to college too soon. They should've taken a decade off to grow up, like I did. I organized study groups for these classes. To sweeten the pot, I made it a rule that for every 30 minutes of hard work doing board problems, there was 30 minutes of socializing and venting. Then, rule 2 was that everyone did board problems, and new people were up first. I won't go into more detail, but everyone who attended the study groups started getting As on their tests. The results and the social aspect made these study groups popular. Pretty soon, most of the class was in these groups, and that made it very easy to work with the professor to get classroom time instead of schlepping to the college library or the public library for a meeting room.

Although these classes were requirements for engineers and medical doctors, most of the folks who I stayed in contact with eventually changed majors / declared different majors, dropped out, or got unrelated jobs after graduation. I also saw this as a problem with maturity. I knew exactly what I was doing when I started these classes. These kids were burning money to try to figure out what they wanted to do with their lives. Eh... that's a broken system. Kids shouldn't be saddled with debt nor should they have to make a decision about what they want to do for the rest of their lives before their prefrontal contexes have finished forming.