[petesergeant]

> it feels unfair to say they don’t deserve happiness just because they can’t make themselves seek it

While I’d agree, you’ve read the OP’s comment in a significantly darker light than I did, or than I can get the text to support

[Aeolun]

Ah, I wasn’t necessarily trying to imply anything about OP’s post.

Just that what worked for him might not work for many others. I’m still happy to hear he did ;)

[noisy_boy]

I think I agree on your take. Mental strength in people in adverse conditions is not the rule, it is the exception. Most won't have enough of it to overcome the difficulties and will instead fall prey to easy traps like drugs etc. It is easy for most of us, who have managed well enough to be commenting here which probably implies a baseline amount of mental strength, to take the shining examples and think that these examples are universal tools of motivation. To a person that is dealing with the deep-seated problems we are talking about, that could be, indeed, motivation but also could feel like we are mocking them or trivializing their struggles. Only you can feel your toothache, me saying other people experience it and get over it, doesn't lower your pain (obviously this is a scale and this analogy isn't universal).

[komali2]

A lot of cozy people underestimate the willpower challenge of poverty.

I meet so many tech bros that victim blame. "the mom working two jobs has at least an hour at night. She can use that time to take free coding classes, teach herself to code, upskill and get a high paying programming job. It's not easy but it's possible." Some variation of that said to me so many times. "my family grew up poor and I figured it out! My dad came to this country with five dollars in his pocket etc etc."

I think one or two were telling the truth from all angles. Most were telling the truth as they knew it, but didn't realize that the fact that their parents were able to afford a house in the good school district already gave them a significant leg up, or other random privileges they have over others.

But what everyone seems to overestimate is their own willpower when they aren't just working many hours - which many of us on this forum are used to from startup life - but working for those hours for 7$ or less per hour, while facing humiliation and depredation every day at however many jobs being worked (by customers, by managers), looking to the future and seeing nothing but this 7$ an hour, watching your meagre savings always get nuked at just the right moment by a blown head gasket or the landlord raising rent or the kid needing unexpected school supplies because they forgot their backpack at the bus stop or whatever else.

The psychological burden of a hopeless situation is enormous. I wish I could help more people understand that and empathize with people in these situations. In the richest country on earth I don't understand why we tolerate people having to live like that, out of some cultish dedication to nonexistent meritocracy.

[nicolas_t]

> "my family grew up poor and I figured it out! My dad came to this country with five dollars in his pocket etc etc."

People also drastically underestimate the negative changes in social mobility since 1980. You mentioned one with housing but access to good education is another aspect.

I know the situation in France more than the US but at least in France, there used to be a lot more upward mobility. I went to a very well ranked engineering school that was created in the 60s with the goal of giving access to higher education to everyone. When they opened, 30% of students had parents who were farmer or factory workers (65% of the population had those type of jobs back then). By 2005, 7% of students had those kind of background (compared 39% of the population did those kind of jobs). I was in the school administration concil back then and this was already seen as a big problem. I know for a fact that the students coming from less advantageous background has been further reduced.

It's a generalized trend, increasingly all the best schools mostly admit from a small selection of students that come from a select number of good schools.

There's a lot of factors that changed and, surprisingly, evolution of upward mobility is poorly studied. My mother always thought that she succeeded because she went to boarding school in middle school and high school. Back then it was normal for people living far in the countryside like her. She thinks that boarding school allowed her to get a rest from her stressful and toxic home environment. Thanks to it she was able to read, study in peace and able to succeed. She later became a teacher and she was saddened by some of the kids she saw that grew up in an adverse environment with no real way out.

> The psychological burden of a hopeless situation is enormous.

Fully agreed on the psychological burden of a hopeless situation. When you are perpetually stressed about money, it's hard to gather the required energy to do anything besides surviving.

[noisy_boy]

So true. This may come across as first world problems but here goes: once I forgot to take my wallet to the office; so no cash or cards (I had taken a cab and realized this once I reached office). I had to borrow some money from my co-worker (which I was quite uncomfortable about since I have a bit of an allergy about borrowing money). That day, I repeatedly calculated how much I had left to ensure that I had enough for lunch, dinner (which I used to do near office) and transportation. Not even close to hardships of someone dealing with real financial challenges but it was like a sneak peak that I stayed with me.

[Aeolun]

I think maybe the difference for me is that I know I’m very unmotivated myself. If it doesn’t come easy to me, chances are I wouldn’t do it. I’ve just been lucky that I was born in a middle class family in a socialist country and fell into a career that comes both easy and pays a lot of money.

If I’d been born in a low income family in the US, I’d be working a dead end cleaning job, with no prospect of anything ever getting better. I’m fairly certain I’d be a kick ass cleaner though.

[gopher_space]

OP sounds too servile to appreciate the hatred we have for Horatio Alger.