[batshit_beaver]

> The outcome of this has been to make it harder to fail as a kid.

I'd like to go a little further and suggest that more recently there's been a trend of not holding the adults accountable either.

Instead of trying to improve outcomes for all, we seem to have decided to choose the path of collective failure.

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

When do the greater communities need to pay their dues?

Schools cost money to run but taxpayers balk and cry over every cent increase. There are crumbling schools with toxic air and water that lack adequate HVAC paying their teachers unlivable salaries. This is the result of neglect to preserve and invest which is a condemnation of those who allowed such neglect on their watch when they should have championed such plights before they reached these new heights.

Teachers can literally be miracle workers but that makes no difference if the communities their students return to undervalue education or lack the resources to foster healthy environments to grow and learn in. Broken communities create broken school districts.

This goes back to the point I make in another comment on this page. We must invest in underperforming communities to bring them up to the average if we want to see improvements. This necessarily requires such difficult conversations like the poor Hispanic or black majority cities getting some of the education tax from rich white suburbs or something to the same effect.

[llm_trw]

Schools in the US cost more than schools in any other developed nation.

Every institution in the US has been taken over by careerists and credentialists who produce nothing of value and are a drain on the system.

For a simple example in our area look at twitter: we were told the servers would catch fire, the end times will be upon us and cats will live with dogs. Instead the servers kept chugging along just as well as they did before with a 20th the staff.

At this point everything is so bad I'd support sortition for every public managerial position. You can't do worse than what we have today.

[tatrajim]

As an anecdote on the topic of education, as a US Peace Corps Volunteer in rural South Korea in the 1970s, I routinely visited secondary schools that (at the time) were little more than drab warehouses for large (-70 students/class) using ragged textbooks and ancient furniture. Spirits were high, though, and these farm kids were successfully learning math through basic differential calculus plus a daunting array of other subjects.

Thereafter, I have only felt (perhaps unfairly) mild contempt for the perennial whining of US critics who blame low funding for educational failing in the public schools. In my opinion the blame lies elsewhere, starting with the family.

[galdosdi]

A quote I once heard applies here. "All a preacher needs is 4 walls and the good book, and willing souls"

For most of school, all you need is paper and pens and a place where to meet. A notebook costs a dollar. You can also do quite a bit of lab science prior to college at home, and music only adds the cost of the instrument.

I have done tutoring in parks and coffee shops and in some of those sessions seen more learning than the most expensive classroom.

It's about the kids and the teachers, not the campus.

If you want a really really good school at a really low price, eliminate the building and all support functions other than hiring new teachers, and redirect all of the extra money to teachers salaries. Then just meet in libraries, parks, coffee shops, and the houses of parents and teachers.

99% of the outcome comes from the teachers (being competent) and the students (being motivated).

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

See my highest level comment for a discussion of why blaming the family is intellectually lazy.

[thegrimmest]

If all data sources indicate that domestic culture is the single biggest differentiator to educational attainment, who are you suggesting we blame besides the stewards of said domestic culture?

Go to school, get good grades, don't borrow money, look after your health, get a job, be polite, pay your taxes - these are all the fundamentals of a good culture and are massively predictive of success. Lots of this advice is millennia old. It's not the role of a liberal government to culturally indoctrinate its people.

[llm_trw]

Domestic culture is important but you can't have one when both parents have to be out of the house for 10 hours a day to work.

Of course if we go back to a one income family women will be rather upset that they can't work any more.

So fuck the kids I guess.

[trogdor]

> sortition

Cool, I learned a new word. Thanks.

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

These are bold claims that smell like dog whistles but I’m unfamiliar with any specifics. Got sources or what?

[llm_trw]

If you keep hearing dog whistles everywhere you may be a dog.

At any rate a quick google search give you all the answers you need: https://www.mercatus.org/research/data-visualizations/k-12-s...

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

> Every institution in the US has been taken over by careerists and credentialists who produce nothing of value and are a drain on the system

Is the whistle you neglected to source.

[llm_trw]

I'm sorry I also don't have sources for the fact that water is wet and the sky is blue.

If you think that every major project from federal to local government being delivered over budget, behind schedule and with fewer capabilities than promised is a dog whistle I have a perfectly functional bridge in Baltimore to sell you.

[monero-xmr]

As a counterpoint, Boston spends more per student than every other city ($31.3k in 2023 dollars):

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/05/30/metro/boston-now-spen....

But the outcomes are quite poor.

How can society justify spending more on the same institutions that have miserable outcomes?

In the private sector, less revenue forces belt-tightening, purchasing software and tools that enhance productivity, and ultimately bankruptcy if it can't work. Where in the public sector is anyone held accountable for failure? When will we accept that simply throwing more money down the pit won't solve what is a multi-faceted issue that primarily isn't about money?

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

The families need money. Kids from impoverished and broken homes make poor students that ruin the experience for the everyone in the school. Their misery is contagious. Throwing it at schools won’t solve it because teachers are doing everything they can to support kids but teachers have no control outside the school day. Increase foster care budgets and social welfare programs. If America can afford Musk naziposting on Twitter we can afford to eliminate poverty, hunger, homelessness, and untreated /under treated medical conditions.

[sabarn01]

My wife's family fostered and the only thing that happens is the kids eventually get sent back to the families. Even families who have abused the kids multiple times. We don't have an answer to kids from bad families. The state can't overcome bad parents.

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

Anecdote is not data. States cannot afford (in dollars and beds) house every kid they are justified in taking from guardians. Increase the budgets until they can and fund solutions that reduce violence against children. Not as easy as just hand waving about bad parents and might also require evaluating your prejudices.

[sabarn01]

Two of the kids later died in parental custody after being returned. I'm not sure what prejudices I should evaluate. My experience is that Indiana CPS has a hard job and can't get it right in a lot of cases. We don't have a vast array of foster parents ready to handle kids with a lot of issues nor do we really have orphanages anymore. You number 1 most import part of life is having good parents who care for you regardless of their means there isn't a system that can fix that.

[monero-xmr]

There is no amount of money you can pay someone to make them genuinely love a child. Employees do a job, you can throw money at the same employees, or more employees, but children need better parents.

Maybe we should be investing ways to get parents to go to church? They would turn into better people.

[Red_Leaves_Flyy]

You’re joking right? How many religious officials have been convicted for child sex abuse? I’ve lost count. Churches are social control and tax evasion devices. Their positive impact on communities is grossly outweighed by the harms.

https://oxfordre.com/politics/display/10.1093/acrefore/97801....

[monero-xmr]

Plenty of politicians have abused children. That’s a red herring

[sabarn01]

My kids school is terrible and they get about 22k per student per year in a rich area. The system is failing because it's designed to fail.