[bumby]

There's a couple things we need to agree on to get there.

1) A lot of this industry is based on human trafficking. I've linked elsewhere to a good podcast that explains this and others have chimed in with other references.

2) By wasting the scammer's time, you are putting them at risk of abuse because of #1.

So if you can agree that "increasing the risk of human physical violence to live out some vigilante sense of justice" is worse than "not," it leads to worse outcomes for disproportionately little net gain.

Edit: (sorry, I was actually editing this as you were already posting. I had already answered this in multiple other comments, so it was getting tiresome)

The UN is already working on diplomatic pressure in countries like Cambodia that seem to specialize in this sort of thing. Countries like China (where there are victims on both sides of the problem) have created movies [1], in part, to educate the populace. I'm not claiming there are any silver bullets, but I think the types of actions in the article are more about feeling like you're doing good than actually doing good. And it hits home because most of us have similar thoughts. It's a bit masturbatory in that regard, and I want to push back a bit on the idea that it's actually solving much of anything despite what our baser instincts are telling us.

[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt28076784/

[tombert]

You didn't actually answer the question. I'll agree with both points (though I take a bit of issue with the second with some of the wording), but you didn't suggest any short term solutions.

ETA:

I want to clarify, these people will have violence inflicted on them if they're not collecting money. If Kitboga is wasting their time, they're not collecting money. If they just get a bad shuffle and don't get anyone gullible for a few days, they're also not collecting money. You seem to be purposefully ignoring this.

[bumby]

I think you are conflating two questions.

1) How do we not make things worse?

2) How do we solve the problem?

My whole point has been regarding #1. There is some probability that the scammers get "a bad shuffle" and get abused. However, if you deliberately waste their time, you have just increased that probability to 100%. I'm claiming that makes things worse.

If your new question is how do we solve the human trafficking problem that undergirds this industry, I'm afraid I don't think there's "this one hack" that can solve that. But at least we don't have to make things worse in the short term.

[tombert]

Ok, but this is the point that I think we disagree; I would think that the "bad shuffle" is what we want? I think you would agree that grandmother spending her entire retirement on Google Play cards is a bad thing. Deliberately wasting their time guarantees that at least that scammer is not extracting money from some random person. I'm having trouble seeing how that's a bad thing; all these scambaiters are doing is kind of forcing the "bad shuffle".

I think I must be misunderstanding because it genuinely seems to be that you're suggesting that the best course of action is to just let people get scammed for hundreds of thousands of dollars until there is a systemic solution. A systemic solution can take years, maybe decades.

[bumby]

>I think I must be misunderstanding

It reads that we are speaking past each other and I think the misunderstanding comes from your consistent reframing as the choice between two bad outcomes. I've already commented that dichotomous thinking isn't helpful. So, again, I don't think there are only two options: a) let someone get scammed and b) let someone get abused. I think that kind of thinking is incompatible with finding good solutions.

But...since you keep framing it that way...I would say, between the two, allowing someone to lose money is a better outcome than making it likely that someone will be beaten while being imprisoned against their will. In a (falsely) dichotomously framed argument, there is a clear hierarchy. Physical safety trumps money. "My kingdom for a horse" and all that.

I think the best option for the person in TFA is to get proactively involved in providing systemic solutions. If they aren't up for that, the next best option is to ignore the calls. I wouldn't even put the "scam the scammers" in the same discussion because, as we'd talked about ad nauseam, it's not really a solution and probably antithetical to a solution because it potentially makes things worse. Again, at the very least, we can not make things worse. You seem to be advocating for the "making things worse" choice because you've constrained yourself to only two options and you already decided that one is unacceptable.

[tombert]

> But...since you keep framing it that way...I would say, between the two, allowing someone to lose money is a better outcome than making it likely that someone will be beaten while being imprisoned against their will.

Ok, so there's actually a word for that, it's called "extortion". It's generally frowned upon.

You have repeated that it's a "false dichotomy" like seven times now, but you haven't actually suggested a third solution to the problem. "Get involved in providing systemic solutions" is absurd; what the hell does that even mean? I vote for politicians that might do something about it? I write a letter to the UN? Ok, so that's great, maybe I make a change.org petition while I'm at it. Maybe in twenty years something will actually get done.

You also have not actually explained how things are "being made worse" by these scambaiters. I would argue that reducing extortion is good, and outweighs the risk of the traffic victims being abused. It's very sad, I don't like them being abused, but what you're suggesting is borderline-ludacris, short-sighted, and doesn't actually make any sense if taken to its logical extreme.

[bumby]

This will be my last reply because I've already responded to all those claims multiple times.

I think the gist is we fundamentally disagree about this point:

>"I would argue that reducing extortion is good, and outweighs the risk of the traffic victims being abused."

So if you were given a choice between handing me over your wallet, or me knocking out all your teeth (literally the example in the link I provided in another comment), you'd choose me knocking out your teeth? Okay, I guess, but I find it hard to believe. As long as you value money over physical safety, we probably will disagree. (I suspect it has more to do with psychological distance than really feeling that way. If, instead of some abstract person in a third world country, it was a loved family member at risk, would it change your response?) So, in that context, along with rehashing the points I've already addressed, your responses come across as either someone who makes sport of arguing for its own sake, or you're just incapable of accepting information when it's provided.

E.g., >but you haven't actually suggested a third solution to the problem.

In the post above this, I literally said ignoring the call is preferential to either "scamming the scammer"

>what the hell does that even mean?

I deliberately left it vague because it's up to you to decide what level of effort is reasonable given your value system. On one end you can simply try to lift the veil of ignorance and recognize the complexities of the issue and on the other extreme, you could go to Cambodia to actively work against it. Even simply marking the call as spam is more reasonable IMO than actively increasing the risk of physical violence on someone being trafficked because it's of no consequence to you. There's plenty of wiggle room for each individual to figure out what works for them. Again, at the very least, I would argue they have a duty to not make things worse. Apparently, you think losing money is worse than being physically harmed. I disagree. There are many situations in life when doing nothing is the better option.

>what you're suggesting is borderline-ludacris, short-sighted

The irony is that my point is that "scamming the scammer" is short-sighted because they do not take into consideration anything past the immediate interaction. In the short-term, it makes them feel good because of our innate bias toward a sense of justice, but once you get past that bubble it's worse overall (my claim, which you obvious disagree with, but haven't really explained why). There is a certain arrogance in it which effectively says, "I am so very very smart, I will outwit this scammer for the lolz" while being oblivious to the larger consequences. My entire point is that people need to be aware of the larger consequences and it's pretty clear the subject of TFA is not.

>if taken to its logical extreme.

This is exactly what people with dichotomous thinking do. By not recognizing any grey, you are constraining yourself to only two extreme choices.

I've explained why it does more harm. I've explained why it confuses what the real problem is. I've offered better options, both at the individual and nation-state level. There are some potentially reasonable philosophical reasons to disagree with those points, but you just bypass them like you never read them to begin with.

[kcplate]

> I would say, between the two, allowing someone to lose money is a better outcome than making it likely that someone will be beaten while being imprisoned against their will.

That is tactical thinking as opposed to strategic thinking. What if 1000 beatings saved 10000 beatings and saved 100000 little old ladies from being scammed out of thousands of dollars. Making the scam industry unprofitable is more important than making it profitable to avoid some violence. No matter what, someone has to sacrifice, why not sacrifice where the end goal eliminates the problem rather than exacerbates it?

[bumby]

>why not sacrifice where the end goal eliminates the problem rather than exacerbates it?

It doesn't eliminate the problem. Covered by others, but it's a collective action problem. The fact that a few people "scam the scammers" doesn't actually make the industry unprofitable. So unless you can get a tipping point where lots of people are willing to spend inordinate amounts of time "scamming the scammers" (you won't), it doesn't do anything to eliminate the problem, and probably makes things worse.