[mouse_]

For a product whose main draw is the ability to have whatever connectors you want, the lack of a plain SD card module (a standard feature on macbooks, so standard in fact that they TRIED to get rid of it and had to backpeddle; an extremely rare move for Apple) destroyed my confidence in this company. I don't trust them.

[multimoon]

I don’t own a framework device as it’s not my kind of niche, but this seems like a really weird place to throw around the word “trust”.

That implies you believe they are doing something shady or nefarious by not making a sd card module - which they aren’t. This is just an old fashioned business decision where it’s not the financial priority right now.

What I think you mean to say is that it’s a feature required for you that they don’t have. In fact it looks like they’re making one soon: https://frame.work/products/sd-expansion-card

[paulmd]

Honestly it is a trust issue. I almost bought a framework laptop last year. People pitched it as a seriously viable alternative to the MacBook and applied social pressure to give it serious consideration. I realize now that it would have been a serious waste of a large amount of money and time and yes, that is a trust issue.

And you can say “well that wasn’t the official framework org” but they’re kinda holding themselves out as a serious contender (marketing on LTT etc) yet apparently don’t have things as basic as working Linux drivers (in their officially supported choice of distro)! I think there is indeed a general belief among the public that you need to at least get that far before holding yourself out for public consumption, as a non-beta product, yeah. When you do those sorts of things it’s clearly not being held out as an enthusiast device for tinkering etc, and then people will have some (reasonable) expectations that it’s gonna actually work. If not, arguably it’s FTC time at that point.

It’s kinda the same as AMD graphics drivers on windows… having the fans repeatedly insist they’ve never had a driver issue for 10 years now (when Vega, rdna1, and rdna3 all had major issues that lasted a significant amount of time) does destroy trust among the public when they try it and see it’s not true. Nothing feels worse than recommending them to a friend based on seeming internet consensus and having them have problems over the advice I gave them. Spent a lot of time trying to debug remotely and get their 5700xt working etc, never did, they ended up selling and buying a 2060S that worked perfectly, and I’ve never trusted the fans again.

The boy who cried wolf is a cultural touchstone for a reason, we don’t like being called to action for something that turns out to be untrue. And spending a lot of money to learn that lesson generally does create a trust issue that turns people off with these brands.

[kelnos]

> People pitched it as a seriously viable alternative to the MacBook and applied social pressure to give it serious consideration. I realize now that it would have been a serious waste

So let me get this straight: a bunch of your friends evangelized Framework to you, but you decided not to go with it, and later realized you made the right decision. And because of that, you don't "trust" Framework (the company). That's not only a weird overreaction, but also a weird place to assign blame. Maybe tell your friends to stop pressuring you to buy things that aren't your cup of tea? Or, hell, maybe tell your friends to stop pressuring you to buy things, period... cuz that's kinda an inappropriate thing for a supposed friend to do?

> apparently don’t have things as basic as working Linux drivers

Not sure what you mean; Linux runs fine on my Framework, with all hardware fully supported.

> I think there is indeed a general belief among the public that you need to at least get that far before holding yourself out for public consumption

I think the general belief among the public is, "Linux? what's that?" Most consumer laptops do not have official support for Linux, and many of them have various bits of hardware (looking at you, Dell, and the fingerprint sensor on my old laptop) that don't work on Linux at all. Yes, Framework has advertised some Linux support, but I think it's been pretty clear that Windows is their priority. And regardless... Linux works fine on Framework laptops. Also consider that "Linux" isn't just one thing: realistically Framework can only test one or two distros; if you want to run something else, you're quite reasonably on your own, and should try to repro issues while running the supported distros before blaming Framework.

[LightHugger]

They have an SD card module just not the one you want. That also makes no sense as a reason not to "trust" them. You can want more from them maybe, but trust makes no sense in this context.

Apple however makes a lot of sense to mistrust at pretty much every turn.

[nilamo]

They also don't have vga, but that seems like a weird reason to mistrust a company.

[mouse_]

Neither does the MacBook. Still has SD though.

[kelnos]

I think it's a bit absurd to take something like "they don't make a full-size SD card reader module" and turn that into a trust issue. Unless, of course, they promised to design and sell one, and didn't follow through. Even then, seems a bit of an overreaction.

Meanwhile, my 12th-gen Intel Framework 13 has severe thermal throttling issues that support hasn't been able to resolve after more than a year of back and forth. While my confidence in the company is at an all-time low, I don't think this is a trust issue.

Anyway, they've already pre-announced a SD card module[0], and people can sign up to get updates about its development. They're even completely candid that it's not 100% certain they won't cancel the project. That sounds refreshingly trustworthy, over other companies that might promise it without disclosing the uncertainty, or even take pre-order money and hold onto it for who knows how long.

[0] https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card

[gravescale]

It does seem a little strange considering that they have a microSD module which is electrically almost exactly the same thing (the only difference is the mechanical write protect toggle).

Then again they have a miniscule engineering team but they have made two laptops with some pretty non-conventional design aspects and a bunch of modules including a swappable GPU and (one of?) the first 180W USB-C power supplies they're doing a pretty good job so far.

Considering the relative rarity of SD cards compared to microSD, other than photo- and videographers who aren't really a core demographic, welded as they often are into the Mac ecosystem, I can see why it's not the biggest priority and it certainly doesn't smell of dishonesty. I mean, why would they even be up to shenanigans over SD cards of all things?

Since they're on the case (ha, geddit?) anyway, you can get a $5 USB3 SD adapter today and buy the module when it comes out. Which is more than I can hope for with a recent ThinkPad!

[kelnos]

> It does seem a little strange considering that they have a microSD module which is electrically almost exactly the same thing

I wouldn't be surprised if the internals of the module would need to be completely redesigned, with the circuit board layout redone, for a full-size SD card. The SD card itself likely would physically reside in a location where other components reside in the microSD reader expansion card.

[Macha]

> Considering the relative rarity of SD cards compared to microSD, other than photo- and videographers who aren't really a core demographic, welded as they often are into the Mac ecosystem, I can see why it's not the biggest priority and it certainly doesn't smell of dishonesty. I mean, why would they even be up to shenanigans over SD cards of all things?

I do wonder how true it is that the "put microSD cards in your computer" market is smaller than the "put SD cards in your computer" market.

If I think of the devices that I have microSD cards in (Nintendo Switch, Steam Deck, Windows tablet, phones), they're all devices where the microSD card just lives in the device and only gets removed when I'm upgrading the device. Or I guess there was the time I installed CFW on my 2DS XL.

On the other hand, I take the SD card in and out of my camera much more often, despite it getting less use than the aforementioned microSD using devices.

Not to mention most microSD cards are sold with a microSD -> SD adapter, so to me it feels like if you're going to do only one adapter, you'd do SD.

[gravescale]

I think the SD module won't be able to have the card flush. SD cards are 32mm long, and you need some PCB space for the socket cage and the USB-C on the other side. The retrofit PCB outline they provide is only 26.9mm from front edge to back edge, so an SD card will stick out a little bit.

So perhaps they decided to first go for the one that lets users have the card flush for use like an expansion bay as well as for data transfer to/from devices.

https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards/tree/mai...

[kelnos]

> I do wonder how true it is that the "put microSD cards in your computer" market is smaller than the "put SD cards in your computer" market.

Just one single anecdotal data point, but: I'm not sure the last time I've even seen a full-size SD card, let alone used one. I don't use microSD a ton, but enough that I'm glad I have the expansion card for it.

I do think my DSLR takes a full-size SD card, but I (somewhat sadly) haven't touched it in years.

[wizardwes]

In the 3D printer market it has been pretty common to be moving micro SD cards around for that. A few printers use USB A, and there are mods to swap to full size SD cards/internet connectivity for getting your files to your printer, but micro SD was the standard until just recently.

[numpad0]

"Destroyed My Confidence in This Company" sounds too much, but makes me think, is Panasonic Let's note what a car is to a faster horse for Framework customer base?

They have Intel 13th, 16GB onboard RAM, 3x USB-A, 2x TB4, VGA, HDMI, Ethernet, SD slot, 19V barrel jack input, removable battery, etc etc at $1999 starting. That should tick every major boxes that Framework 13 does except price. If by modularity people means SD and VGA and Framework modularity cannot accommodate that, that doesn't count.

Has this all been just a massively roundabout way of finding that out?

[jlkuester7]

Doesn't Framework publish the schematics for building new modules? If so, I guess if there is a market for an SD card module, one will present itself...

[nosrepa]

Since when are apple users afraid of buying dongles? I thought that was their pastime.

[ben-schaaf]

Only the macbook pro and mac studio have an SD card reader; hardly a standard feature.

[kiba]

This is a weird reason to reject them. Not everybody uses SD card module.

[CoBE10]

From personal experience (I don't use SD cards often) I would rather have another USB A or C port instead of SD port. USB SD card readers are so much cheaper and smaller than Framework expansion cards, that having one in a bag takes less space, and you can carry them like USB flash drive.

[kelnos]

Well, that's one of the Framework's value props: you can have both, and swap out the card reader module for a port module if you want to. And if you aren't sure, you can always carry the module with you, which is no worse than if you had to carry an external reader.

[Kelteseth]

Eh, I personally never bothered about SD cards. But at least they are on it:

https://frame.work/de/en/products/sd-expansion-card

[teaearlgraycold]

They are not competing with Apple.

[FloatArtifact]

Source?