Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by thiagoharry 799 days ago
All your interpretation and from some of jurists that you cite is that the attacks that Brazilian institutions suffered, like the attacks caused by digital militias during the Bolsonaro government were not serious coordinated attacks against the rule of law and against the tribunal. If so, involving the supreme tribunal in the case was overkill and should not have been done. This is just this: an interpretation which lost the discussion in the relevant judgements. Several jurists will also have divergent interpretations: it does not matter, there are instances that deal with divergent interpretations and choose the right one, and STF is the maximum instance. The tribunal is chosen by different elected presidents from the past and they vote making the majority decide. Saying that "Brazil is dictatorship" just because you have a divergent interpretation is ridiculous.

You criticize that the STF was not the organization that should have opened the inquiry, saying that using article 43 of internal regiment of STF was wrong. You replicate the arguments in far right groups. According with your interpretation, build a missile to attack the tribunal is not a "crime in the dependencies of the tribunal". You are free to have this interpretation, but this is not the vigent interpretation. Moreover, what you also are conveniently ignoring is that organizations that otherwise should have opened the case if the attack were not considered in the dependencies of tribunal, nonetheless agreed with the inquiry: https://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2020/06/10/agu-e-pgr-d... [source in pt-BR]

Several of your arguments, taken from far right groups, are weak:

> First of all, there is no "fake news" crime in the Brazilian criminal code.

This is just a term used in media. Show me an instance of someone jailed by "fake news". It does not exist. People are charged by crimes of threatening other people, unbased defamation, trying to abolish the rule of law, all of them are crimes and should be punished.

> Third, you cannot have the same person performing the roles of victim, prosecutor and judge.

If I threaten to kill all judges in Brazil, and create a plan to do so, according with you, I cannot be judged because any judge would also be victim in my crime? The fact is that there are cases where the STF has power to act, and that ridiculous argument do not overwrite this. Moreover, nobody is being at the same time judge and prosecutor. Inquiries are not criminal processes, they are administrative procedures. The criminal process comes later. And the prosecutor is not the STF, but the Prosecutor General of the Republic. Unless you have proofs that judges instruct and help prosecutors, like was proven in the carwash operation. But if this operation were carried like the carwash, Bolsonaro would already have been jailed. But fortunately that the due process in being respected in his case.

1 comments

Once again you don't address the points in my previous points and reply with something completely different.

> All your interpretation and from some of jurists that you cite is that the attacks that Brazilian institutions suffered, like the attacks caused by digital militias during the Bolsonaro government were not serious coordinated attacks against the rule of law and against the tribunal.

Oh yes, the grave attacks of people talking on twitter. The Brazilian institutions suffered so much.

> Saying that "Brazil is dictatorship" just because you have a divergent interpretation is ridiculous.

Brazil is a dictatorship because its own Supreme Court disrespects the constitution, censors elected congressmen and journalists without due process (see Twitter Files Brazil), arrests people with without due process, withdraws access to case files to defense attorneys... the list goes on.

> You replicate the arguments in far right groups

Yes, the former Republic Attorney General, a well known far right extremist.

> This is just a term used in media

The exact term is used in the opening of the wildcard illegal inquiry.

> If I threaten to kill all judges in Brazil, and create a plan to do so, according with you, I cannot be judged because any judge would also be victim in my crime?

You think this is some sort of slam dunk argument but it is so juvenile that it shouldn't even deserve a thoughtful reply. You create a fantasy scenario where there's no specific victim ("threaten all judges in Brazil") that is obviously so absurd that such a threat shouldn't even be considered seriously. In the case of an actual crime, where a number of judges are victims, one would expect that investigations are carried out by the Federal Prosecution Service, not by the judges themselves, and that the case would be judged different judges, not the victims themselves.

> The fact is that there are cases where the STF has power to act

This is the core of the problem. The Supreme Court has the power to do whatever it wants, without limits. It is also a political court that is, in their own words, adversarial against right wing thought, and to defeat the right wing they will not be limited by the rule of law.

> Moreover, nobody is being at the same time judge and prosecutor

You cannot be serious.

> You cannot be serious.

Reached the same conclusion as you just did. When I get into these discussions, I end up feeling like I'm getting gaslit. Stuff happened, I saw it happen but the other guy just keeps insisting it didn't happen until the end of time. I'm honestly not even sure if it's deliberate or not.

Reductio ad absurdum is the only viable response.

>, censors elected congressmen and journalists without due process

Not censorship. Brazilian law allows you to remove content in case of criminal investigation, threatenings, unbased defamation....

> arrests people with without due process, withdraws access to case files to defense attorneys

> You think this is some sort of slam dunk argument but it is so juvenile that it shouldn't even deserve a thoughtful reply.

It's not mine, its your argument. You says that people that attacks or theatens STF judge cannot be judged by them, even in the context that the law allows it. According with you, if the presidents enters in STF and try to shoot the judges, nobody should judge him, as the law says that STF should judge this situation, but the STF minister were the targeted victims.

> This is the core of the problem. The Supreme Court has the power to do whatever it wants, without limits. I

It is not acting without limits. Contrary to your narrative nobody is being just censored. People are being charged with real accusations, like threatening other people, attempt against the rule of law, etc. This is just blatant lie.

> Not censorship. Brazilian law allows you to remove content in case of criminal investigation, threatenings, unbased defamation....

The law allows that under certain conditions, yes. Are these conditions being met? No. It’s being used as a political weapon in a crusade of the Supreme Court against certain political beliefs.

When you have rules that are selectively applied by a political court, it is censorship.

How many people on the left have been investigated for threatening or defaming a right wing politician since the inquiry was opened?

> You says that people that attacks or theatens STF judge cannot be judged by them, even in the context that the law allows it.

There is no law that allows it. There is an internal regiment, which the newer 1988 constitution contradicts. But even if you ignore that, the regiment very clearly defines under which conditions the Supreme Court itself can open an inquiry, that is, crimes that happen within the premises of the court. That requirement was clearly not satisfied, so the court invented a new “interpretation” that considers things that happen on the internet to be within its premises.

> It is not acting without limits.

Yes it is, as I have explained multiple times. Bypassing jurisdiction, coming up with convenient “interpretations” that give them more power, mass incarceration of people without formal accusation, denying defense attorneys access to court papers, requiring content to be taken offline without due process, and so on.

You cannot bend the law to go after people you don’t like. That’s not how democracy works.

> The law allows that under certain conditions, yes. Are these conditions being met? No. It’s being used as a political weapon in a crusade of the Supreme Court against certain political beliefs.

Ok, now you need to prove that the conditions are not being met. As the prosecutors in each case will present the proofs for each case when the inquiry becomes a criminal case.

> How many people on the left have been investigated for threatening or defaming a right wing politician since the inquiry was opened?

Perhaps, the secret for not being condemned is not commit crimes...? Is the left also trying a coup or created digital militias to spread disinformation and threats like the far right...?

> There is no law that allows it. There is an internal regiment, which the newer 1988 constitution contradicts. But even if you ignore that, the regiment very clearly defines under which conditions the Supreme Court itself can open an inquiry, that is, crimes that happen within the premises of the court. That requirement was clearly not satisfied, so the court invented a new “interpretation” that considers things that happen on the internet to be within its premises.

The court interpretation was not challenged by AGU and PGR (https://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2020/06/10/agu-e-pgr-d...). Even if you were the authority selected by democratic governments to interpret the law, which you are not, following your interpretation, the other entities that should open the inquiry all agreed with the inquiry.

> mass incarceration of people without formal accusation,

Trying to abolish the rule of law, armed criminal association, vandalism, destruction of historical items are not serious accusations enough...? All them were jailed in flagrant. If you kill someone and is captured on the act, you will be jailed on flagrant, you cannot escape this trying to defend yourself saying that "nobody opened yet a formal accusation". The formal accusation will be opened, but we had a flagrant crime.

> Ok, now you need to prove that the conditions are not being met. As the prosecutors in each case will present the proofs for each case when the inquiry becomes a criminal case.

If a crime was committed, why wasn't it disclosed?

Right now we’ve had requests for accounts of congressman and journalists to be blocked. Notice this isn’t content being taken down. They were forbidden to express themselves in the social network platforms. Even if you make the case they posted “illegal content” (still waiting for the definition of this), it’s not that this content was removed. The state asked the platforms to block every future content they may post. Is that future content also illegal? What is this, Minority Report?

Moreover, no reason was specified for the blocking. The platforms were requested to comply with removal of content in under 2 hours and to pretend it was being done due to violation of their terms of service.

They even notified Rumble, which has no office in Brazil. Does the Brazilian Supreme Court jurisdiction cover the whole world?

> Perhaps, the secret for not being condemned is not commit crimes...?

What crimes? You still have not listed a single one. And you can’t, because the political actions of the court are being done under secrecy. In fact, even the defense attorneys do not know, because the case files are being kept from them. Is this what you call rule of law?

> Is the left also trying a coup

The left has practiced similar acts of vandalism multiple times, but when the left does it it’s not a coup attempt, it’s a “fight for rights and democracy” (example: [1] — notice: with the direct participation of a far-left politician that is now a candidate for mayor of São Paulo).

You keep forgetting that this inquiry preceded the events of January 8th, so by simple logic, those events cannot be used as justification for the inquiry.

> or created digital militias to spread disinformation and threats like the far right...?

Uhm, yes. [2,3,4,5,6]

> The court interpretation was not challenged by AGU and PGR

Your own link says they have required “clear parameters”.

“We just need markers so that the object is not changing [variable]”, argued Aras. The PGR asked the Supreme Court “so that the object [of the investigation] is carried out in a delimited manner and that invasive measures are previously submitted to the accusatory system and that the Public Prosecution Service can receive the attention of rapporteur Alexandre de Moraes and other rapporteurs in other inquiries.”

Have the requested boundaries been implemented? No. The Public Prosecution Service request was once again ignored, just as in 2019 when the Attorney General requested the archival of the inquiry due to its unconstitutionality.

> Trying to abolish the rule of law, armed criminal association, vandalism, destruction of historical items are not serious accusations enough...?

Some people were arrested far away from the vandalism site, while peacefully protesting, with no formal accusation and are still in jail. Uber drivers who were taking people to the protests were arrested. Street sellers who were selling Brazilian flags at the day were arrested. Children were sent to jail with their parents. Even fucking dogs were sent to prison.

How many people were sent to jail after the far-left attack on government buildings in 2015? Zero.

The rule of law in Brazil has already been abolished, but not by who you think.

[1]https://m.folha.uol.com.br/poder/2015/09/1685307-mtst-invade...

[2]https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/fsp/poder/po1810201110.htm

[3]https://veja.abril.com.br/politica/milicia-digital-do-pt-gan...

[4]https://www.gazetadopovo.com.br/republica/milicias-digitais-...

[5]https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/amp/poder/2023/05/grupo-de-inf...

[6]https://oglobo.globo.com/google/amp/politica/noticia/2023/10...

> If a crime was committed, why wasn't it disclosed?

It IS disclosed for the involved and accused parties. It is NOT disclosed to Twitter, who is not an involved party. Therefore, the information do not concern Twitter.

> They even notified Rumble, which has no office in Brazil. Does the Brazilian Supreme Court jurisdiction cover the whole world?

They can notify anyone. They can punish only those under their jurisdiction.

> What crimes? You still have not listed a single one.

Hate speech, spread disinformation about elections, irregular political propaganda, threatening other people, trying to abolish the rule of law...

> And you can’t, because the political actions of the court are being done under secrecy. In fact, even the defense attorneys do not know, because the case files are being kept from them.

Where is the source or proof of this information? Far right groups on social media? There are secrecy when there is an ongoing investigation. When people is criminally accused, they have the required information for defend themselves.

> The left has practiced similar acts of vandalism multiple times, but when the left does it it’s not a coup attempt, it’s a “fight for rights and democracy”

Whataboutism which do not even make sense. The linked protest had not the objective of abolishing the rule of law.

> You keep forgetting that this inquiry preceded the events of January 8th, so by simple logic, those events cannot be used as justification for the inquiry.

January 8th did not happened randomly, happening from thin air. There was an ongoing coup attempt happening since much earlier.

> Some people were arrested far away from the vandalism site, while peacefully protesting, with no formal accusation and are still in jail. Uber drivers who were taking people to the protests were arrested. Street sellers who were selling Brazilian flags at the day were arrested. Children were sent to jail with their parents. Even fucking dogs were sent to prison.

You took this from far right groups in social media? Children or dogs cannot be arrested. When needed, children are sent to public institutions to take care of them if her parents committed crimes like trying to abolish the rule of law in a coup. Any relative can then ask to take care of them.