[carguy1983]

Yeah. In Europe, cars treat bikes like vehicles, and bikes treat cars like vehicles.

In America, bikers simply do not follow the laws they are supposed to - and neither do cars. It's not really a "bike is victim" paradigm - it's more like nobody pays any attention to the god damn laws, at all. Because the fucking cops don't enforce the rules!

They give tickets to speeders and red light runners but NOT - NEVER, in fact, to people who don't signal when turning or changing lanes, people who drive too slowly in the fast lane, people who pass on the right, people who stop in the middle of the street to wait for a parking spot, people who do not use turn lanes appropriately, people who stop at yellow lights, people who drive too slowly, people who do not yield to pedestrians, people who block driveways, people who turn left or U-turn illegally, people who ... the list goes on for miles.

Bicycle riders make all these same mistakes as well.

[jmadsen]

sorry to break in on the generalizations, but -

When I lived in Spain they killed so many cyclists every year, it was the source of macabre jokes. I found that to be true in several other countries.

Probably should leave out the "Europe vs US" bit of your argument, and just stick to what you think the causes are.

[zobzu]

Your reply is not directly to me but you're probably right. I used Europe as well as a generalization but there are some exceptions and I didn't bike in every single EU country (for instance, I've never done that in urban areas/traffic in Spain).

In general the more south you go the more horrible the driving in EU (yeah another generalization but this one seems pretty good).

I've been honk'd heavily in Italy (Naples) once because I was waiting for the traffic light to go green. I thought it must be I missed something but nope.. they just were "never stopping at this one and its bad practice to do so", one guy said.

[zobzu]

I see cops every now and then, and I know how they are feared and hated in the US (it's true in EU as well but not nearly as much). And I was surprised because indeed, they don't ticket anybody. I don't know if ticketing people every time they pass on red, etc would work, but maybe. I know that if I do that in Germany for example and a cop is around I'm going to pay for it every single time.