[ejb999]

I am really intrigued by using sand for energy storage - what I don't get (not my field) is given a typical 2000sf house, located in the colder part of the country as an example, how much heat could be stored for how long? i.e. is it even feasible to use solar panels to power resistance heaters all spring/summer/fall, to save up enough heat to keep a house warm for the entire winter? if so, how many panels would you need and how big a sand battery would it take.

I am not planning on doing this, but explaining it on a scale that I can relate to would be helpful, because I know, for example, that said house can store a winter's worth of heat in a 1000 gallon oil tank, or small woodshed big enough for 6 cords of wood.

[ceejayoz]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_thermal_energy_storag...

> In Alberta, Canada, the homes of the Drake Landing Solar Community (in operation since 2007), get 97% of their year-round heat from a district heat system that is supplied by solar heat from solar-thermal panels on garage roofs. This feat – a world record – is enabled by interseasonal heat storage in a large mass of native rock that is under a central park. The thermal exchange occurs via a cluster of 144 boreholes, drilled 37 metres (121 ft) into the earth. Each borehole is 155 mm (6.1 in) in diameter and contains a simple heat exchanger made of small diameter plastic pipe, through which water is circulated. No heat pumps are involved.

That development is 52 homes. They are presumably engineered to be highly energy efficient and it's not a perfect comparison to sand, but it's less than I'd have imagined.

[ulnarkressty]

Storing heat in bedrock sounds like a good idea, but there are risks, e.g. https://www.thelocal.de/20170818/this-historic-german-town-i...

[giarc]

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1.7155409

I live in Calgary and have seen a few articles about Drake Landing recently.

[NewJazz]

155 mm huh? Did they use NATO standard mortars to make these boreholes :p?

[dubcanada]

There is no standard borehole size, 155mm drill head is quite easily acquired in Canada

[usrusr]

A very low key variation of heat storage is using a ground-source heat pump in winter and then in the summer using the same heat pump for cooling the house and replenishing the ground source while doing so.

Small ground sources, or ground sources with neighbors too close who do the same, will actually accumulate noticeable ground cooldown from season to season if they are not replenished. Free air conditioning comfort from the replenishing effort, or free replenishing from the air conditioning, you can spin it however you like. It's very low gradient and certainly won't get you through winter without a another power source, but it absolutely is seasonal heat storage.

[jrockway]

I don't think that the sand units you can install in your home have the ability to store energy across seasons. They are more like hot water heaters; heat when you have solar, but you can use some hot water at night when electricity is more expensive.

So this would be like, in a mild climate, the sun is going to keep your house warm during the day and you are generating some solar. You use the solar to heat up the sand, and then overnight, you recover some of that energy to use for heat. (I think you can get electricity back out of the heated sand as well, but it's like 70% efficient compared to >90% for a lithium battery. So I think the big application is in heating, less for charging your car after you get home from work.)

[michael1999]

A single house is too small to make that work. I can't see how you could insulate such a small volume for more than a few hours. It can start to work at district scale, but the Finns are just targeting a few days.

https://www.euronews.com/green/2024/03/10/sand-batteries-cou...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community

[0cf8612b2e1e]

I think this is a surface area/volume problem. A smaller installation is going to have a larger relative surface area given the amount of stored heat, so your losses/insulation requirements are going to be much worse.

[zardo]

https://www.renewableenergymagazine.com/storage/first-commer...

This is 8MWh (of heat), the 1000 gallon oil tank is about 40MWh.

Something like a two story basement filled with sand at the maximum temperature of a home oven is probably in the ballpark.

[cdtwigg]

The temperatures we’re talking about (1000C) would be incredibly dangerous in residential applications, plus a small installation would lose too much energy to the environment due to the ratio of surface area to volume. More practical IMO is to use a daily cycle like what Harvest Thermal is doing: store energy in your water heater tank during the daytime and release it at night.

[dheera]

> winter's worth of heat in a 1000 gallon oil tank

That's a massive fire risk because it is combustible fuel. A pile of hot sand in an auxilary, non-flammable structure isn't going to catch fire.

[nick238]

A 1000 gallon tank stores about 146 gigajoules of energy (diesel motor fuel = 138,700 BTU/gallon, "138700 BTU * 1000 in gigajoules").

1000 gallons of sand (about 6000 kg) heated 1000 °C above ambient stores about 1000 K * 6000 kg * 1.1 kJ/kg-K (from the paper, on page 9) = 6.6 gigajoules.

So to match a fuel tank for energy storage, it needs to be at least 22x the volume, have extremely good insulation (even more volume), a heat-exchanger, and sand-handling augers. Additionally, the sand needed to be heated in the first place, which means a good electrical connection, but if you have that power in the first place, just use that during the winter? The nice part about fuel is that a man and a truck can move a few thousand gallons of hydrocarbons several hundred miles out to the middle of nowhere and transfer that energy at megawatt speed with a hose.

[0cf8612b2e1e]

Huge amount of the rural population already have an oil or propane tank sitting within a hundred yards of their house. Being even slightly remote means you require backup heating options for when things fail.