[C6JEsQeQa5fCjE]

> Of the 32,000 Hamas stated deaths, 13,000 are terrorists

13k out of 32k is around 40%. The estimates for the number of murdered children and women have been about 70% [1] for months, so the "40% are terrorist" claim already does not match that unless women and children are counted as terrorists. Anyway, even going with only 60% of those murdered being women and children, that still implies that every single killed male person is a terrorist. Now, I am sure that IDF already presents this as true in order to justify the murders, but that will not pass basic logical scrutiny of any critically-thinking person.

[1] 2024, March 14, https://www.msnbc.com/top-stories/latest/death-toll-children...

[nsguy]

"according to the Gaza Health Ministry" i.e. according to Hamas. The actual truth is nobody knows. There are a lot of children in Gaza.

To be crystal clear, the below isn't attempting to justify targeting children but it's important that those who are blindingly critical of Israel understand the complex realities.

Hamas does employ combatants under 18yo (which is what counts as children in those counts): "There have been reports of children below 15 years of age in Hamas, with the lowest recorded age being 12, but the process of selection for the Izz al-Deen Al-Qassem Brigades is reportedly long and rigorous and has not to date included children." - https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2001/...

"Amnesty International is gravely concerned about reports that earlier today a 16-year-old Palestinian child was found to be carrying explosives when attempting to pass through the Israeli army checkpoint at Huwara, at the entrance of the West Bank town of Nablus" ... "a 17-year-old Palestinian detonated an explosive belt he was wearing as he was being tracked down by Israeli soldiers," - https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/mde150...

"However, children receive military training and are used as messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians.21 All the main political groups involve children in this way, including Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.22

At least nine children carried out suicide attacks in Israel and the Occupied Territories between October 2000 and March 2004" - https://www.refworld.org/reference/annualreport/cscoal/2004/...

[vharuck]

>"according to the Gaza Health Ministry" i.e. according to Hamas.

I.e., according to the only available source, and one that has proven itself reliable in past conflicts.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-is-gazas-ministry-of...

>Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.

>In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.

>In all cases the U.N.’s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.

>2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.

>2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251.

>2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256.

It's perfectly reasonable to question data from an organization known for propaganda and terrorism. But please also try to find answers to your doubts.

[NomDePlum]

You bring out a statistic of 9 children carrying out suicide attacks in 4 years when a 1,000 times that were deliberately killed by Israel in 4 months?

You do realise that statistically that argument is insane by several orders of magnitude?

There is no rationale, or sane, argument for killing this number of children indescriminately. Never mind the tens of thousands that have been disabled and maimed.

[nsguy]

This isn't about statistics. This is simple fact that Hamas has used children, including young children. It definitely uses 17yo and 16yo. If they used 9 (out of?) back then this simply means they don't care about using children in war.

There's things like making children lie in graves so they get accustomed to being martyrs, this is the longer story: https://aish.com/the-jihadist-who-converted-to-judaism/

I think it's important to understand this to know who Israel is dealing with.

On Israel's side of this I think it's clear Israel has been using fairly indiscriminate force at times. However even if Israel used has the most discriminate use of force a lot of children would get killed.

What do you propose Israel can do against Hamas? What would you do when 30,000 combatants are sitting on your border, embedded with civilians, in civilian clothing, want you to kill as many civilians as possible, use them as shield while launching attacks at you? Half of the population is younger than 18yo. What do you do when thousands of rockets are launched at you from densely populated places? Let's reset to Oct 8th, how do you wage this war?

[DSingularity]

Until you understand that for a very large number of Israelis Palestinians are sub-human you will waste your efforts trying to argue with Israelis based on rationality or ethics. They are racists full stop.

The reason is simple: it’s the combination of forced military and being the descendants of a generation that migrated and ethnically cleansed Palestine are overwhelmingly potent sources of indoctrination. Most people tend to assimilate and therefore they will blend into the Israeli military (and you see what kind of ethics they have) and most people find it difficult to condemn their parents and grandparents as genocidal monsters so instead they will favor whatever narrative absolves their lineage.

[nsguy]

This is nonsense. Palestinians live in Israel too. There is less racism in Israel towards Palestinians than racism towards minorities or blacks in the US.

You just don't get it.

The hatred Israelis feel towards Gazans right now is not driven by racism. In general Israel's feelings towards Palestinians is related to the violence Palestinians have inflicted on Israelis and the violent conflict in general. Israelis think Gazans want to murder all of them and that feeling has support reality.

I agree there's some amount of indoctrination but that's also a simplistic world view.

[DSingularity]

Really? Less racism than towards blacks? You must never have heard Israelis speak about Palestinians.

I really wonder, if you think this is what Israelis think, what do you think Palestinians think? You know, the ones that have been murdered by the tens of thousands. The ones that have been made refugees in their own country.

[8note]

"There are a lot of children in Gaza" tickles the Bayesian probabilities that Israel is mostly killing children in Gaza.

Overall it still points to "what is the right response to guerilla warfare?" Or, "if even children want to kill you for what you're doing, what makes you so sure you're in the right?"

[nsguy]

I don't know what's the right response.

It's important to note that Hamas' suicide bombers were in general manipulated. I.e. this is not some grass roots child that decided they want to "kill you". This is cold blooded recruiting, conditioning, sending people to blow themselves up. I recommend you read up on that a little bit, there's a fair bit of material.

This (the start of the wave of suicide bombings) was also during somewhat euphoric time in Israeli-Palestinian relationships with the peace process happening, it wasn't a time of extreme repression.

You should also look a little at the textbooks and curriculum taught to those children.

[ineedaj0b]

Children are pretty dumb, easily manipulated. The whims of children would tell you they want an iPad not much more