[llamaimperative]

Eh, some people actually have different visions for the world. They'll elect people who are abhorrent to western liberal values over and over again. I don't know what a new election in Gaza would yield, but I don't think it can be a given that giving X group dignity and self-determination will necessarily tilt them toward western liberal outcomes.

[BriggyDwiggs42]

I don’t think israeli policy is or has been particularly effective in expanding western liberal values to palestinians. I’d argue putting people under such pressure provides the exact opposite incentives.

[ethanbond]

I didn’t claim otherwise.

[digging]

> tilt them toward western liberal outcomes

Fortunately, this is not what I'm hoping for! I'd much rather see another Rojava than another Western plutocracy.

[llamaimperative]

> The AANES [Rojava] has widespread support for its universal democratic, sustainable, autonomous pluralist, equal, and feminist policies in dialogues with other parties and organizations. Northeastern Syria is polyethnic and home to sizeable ethnic Kurdish, Arab, and Assyrian populations, with smaller communities of ethnic Turkmen, Armenians, Circassians, and Yazidis.

> The supporters of the region's administration state that it is an officially secular polity with direct democratic ambitions based on democratic confederalism and libertarian socialism promoting decentralization, gender equality, environmental sustainability, social ecology, and pluralistic tolerance for religious, cultural, and political diversity, and that these values are mirrored in its constitution, society, and politics

So… you want a western liberal outcome?

[digging]

Oh, you meant human rights and all that? Having ideals and ethics? Yes, that would be my hope. I thought you were referring to the neoliberal hegemony of wealthy Western nations.

[llamaimperative]

Yes, correct. Human rights is a liberal concept. Pluralism is a liberal concept. Secularism is a liberal concept. There are in fact lots of people who actually literally disagree with these ideals. Lots of ‘em in the Middle East, in fact, which is why you cannot assume that merely lifting the oppressor’s thumb would yield the outcome that’s so intrinsically appealing to your sensibilities that you’re struggling to even identify it as an opinion that you hold and that others may not.

No, I was referring to western liberalism that’s why I used the term western liberalism not “neoliberal hegemony of wealthy Western nations.”

[jayjader]

I'm not who you're responding to, but:

> that’s why I used the term western liberalism not “neoliberal hegemony of wealthy Western nations.”

the latter often cloaks itself as the former when asserting itself.

For example, in France (one of the "birthplaces" for, and current bastions of, western liberalism) there is a phrase often used as a blanket push back against almost any criticism of Israel's actions: "Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East!". It's so prevalent that academia has written an entire book around it: https://www.cairn.info/moyen-orient--9791031803364-page-113....

Depending on how often and how recently they have been encountering things like this (given current events) in their daily life, I can understand the other commenter mistaking your position as such.

For my part, I am unsure of exactly what would happen if we lift the oppressors' thumbs (starting with Israel, Hamas, and wealthy "western" neoliberal hegemony, namely, but the list doesn't stop there). I don't think that anyone knows, for that matter, as it's never happened in any historical circumstances that remotely resemble our own. I do think that if you want western liberalism as the concept, and avoid some of its historical failure modes like boom&bust cycles and exacerbated economic inequality paving the way for populist anti-democratic revolts, you need to aim for much higher than its current outcomes in terms of dignity and self-determination for all groups of peoples. To your point, I've read some reports that Rojava has deteriorated, especially post-US-withdrawal, to very much not be either "western liberalism" or a society I would want to live in.

[8note]

The communists may have been bombed to death by the Turks and Russians when the US left?

But when a friend's brother was there, it was a communist spot