[goethes_kind]

Israel's evil keeps taking me by surprise. I guess when people go down the path of dehumanization there are truly no limits to what they are ready to do.

But what is even sadder is that the supposedly morally superior western world is entirely bribed and blackmailed to stand behind Israel. And then you have countries like Germany where you get thrown in jail for being upset at Israel.

[HDThoreaun]

It's been pretty clear to me for a while now that Israel's long term plan for the Palestinians is to expel them all. Starvation isnt a requirement for that, but it is probably the path of least resistance. I will say that its happening a lot faster than I expected though, Israel definitely taking advantage of the situation here.

[KingMob]

But in lieu of expulsion, it seems they're ok with starvation and mass murder as alternatives.

[jhallenworld]

I'm in the camp that thinks the two-state solution is dead.. which means we are left with an eventual one state solution. Which means they are killing their own future voters.

[ben_w]

> And then you have countries like Germany where you get thrown in jail for being upset at Israel.

Back in 2002 or so, a friend of mine swore blind that an American had been arrested for wearing a "give whirled peas a chance" T-shirt — which is an anecdotal way of saying: are you sure you've got the full story?

I'm learning German by listening to „Langsam Gesprochene Nachrichten“ by Deutsche Welle, and it definitely looks like a lot of people are less than enthusiastic about how Israel's forces are conducting themselves in war despite the constant note that Hamas is (1) a terror organisation that (2) started this particular round by killing 1000 civilians: https://www.dw.com/en/israel-withdraws-from-gazas-devastated...

Germany is also extremely sensitive to every aspect of this due to the events of 80 years ago.

Reports I've seen from the BBC show that there are significant protests in Israel, by those who consider the war to be justified, against their own government, not only for dropping the ball by failing to prevent the initial attack, but also for driving a wedge between them and their closest allies with the conduct of the war: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68722308

[segasaturn]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war_prote...

>In Berlin, authorities banned a pro-Palestinian rally from being held.[176] A number of spontaneous demonstrations protesting the bombing of Gaza took place across the country, but were forcefully broken up by police.[177] Germany banned fundraising, the displaying of the Palestinian flag and the wearing of the keffiyeh.[13]

>In Neukölln, a neighborhood of Berlin, pro-Palestinian protesters described police crackdowns on protest that were "shocking and violent".[180]

[ben_w]

[176]: "On Wednesday, Germany's capital Berlin banned a pro-Palestinian rally due to several previous demos spreading antisemitic hatred."

[177]: "Police broke up the protest by force stating that, according to a police spokesperson, public safety was threatened by “anti-Israel and violence-glorifying chants” and the wearing of masks."

[13]: "“Hamas is already labelled as a terrorist organisation in Germany, but now Berlin will prohibit any activities in support of the group or its agenda,” Scholz said in a speech to parliament. The ban will apply to fundraising, the display of the Palestinian flag, and even the wearing of the Palestinian keffiyeh."

[180]: that one does sound bad even in the source material, I'm not going to attempt to delve deeper into that and instead will take it at face value.

[lupusreal]

> But what is even sadder is that the supposedly morally superior western world is entirely bribed and blackmailed to stand behind Israel.

Add religious indoctrination to that. A huge number of Americans are evangelical Christians who unconditionally support Israel because they are utterly convinced that the continued existence of Israel is a necessary prerequisite for the reincarnation of their god.

[jcranmer]

There is something like a generational divide going on here. Much of the older generation remembers the wider Israeli-Arab conflict (ongoing since 1948, and arguably even decades before that) as "Israel's neighbors repeatedly invade it to try to wipe it off the map." But the last such war was 1973; even the Second Intifada ended in 2005. For the younger generation, the conflict is largely "Israel repeatedly invades its neighbors to tamp down on terrorism." In other words, Israel has largely shifted from being the aggressee to the aggressor in the conflict, and sympathy naturally tends to lie with the aggressee.

That said, there's also something noticeably different about this conflict. For the first time, the reporting I've seen in the mainstream press has generally been trending negative towards Israel. For example, the Washington Post has had a recent article on a press tour the IDF led of the burned-out remains of the hospital it attacked, clearly part of a campaign to justify why it was necessary, and the entire article was dripping with subtext of "we don't buy what the IDF is saying". And even the political headlines are generally framed in a way to keep you asking "should the US even be supporting Israel?"

Israel has already squandered all the sympathy it got from the terrorist attacks last October, and it's well on the way to squandering all residual sympathy from the Holocaust. And the Israeli political and military establishment seems to have zero clue that this is going on.

[nickpsecurity]

That’s not true. Within a short time of forming, all the surrounding nations attacked Israel to ensure they wouldn’t exist there. Israel’s opponents regularly targeted civilians with indiscriminate bombings since that’s what their morals produce. They planned to keep doing that over time, too. Keep that in mind when interpreting everything else.

At times, Israel allowed for a two-state solution but Hamas wanted every Jew there dead or gone. They’d push them into the ocean itself if allowed. People called for Israel reducing their presence in Gaza for peace. Doing that led to more attacks instead of more peace.

Recently, Hamas killed and kidnapped civilians on purpose. Whereas, Israel warned people to leave before the invasion where they then focused on military targets. If people stayed and were connected to those, they’ll likely die during the invasion. The OP is about people who stayed that are mostly connected to militants. OP writer pities their families but not all the non-militant families Hamas killed.

While both sides are plenty guilty, one is actually aiming for peace, focusing on military targets, and reducing civilian casualties. The other broke peace, attacked civilians, and called for more genocide. The difference between these two strategies shows that anyone wanting long-term stability with less murder in the area should support Israel.

Also, Israel is allied more with us while their opponents keep funding terrorist groups, including our own enemies. They’re also strong, economic partners. Why on earth would we ditch our friends to back people who do little for us and support our enemies?

[gryzzly]

what do you mean "bribed and blackmailed"?

[luketaylor]

On AIPAC in the US:

1. “How the Israel lobby moved to quash rising dissent in Congress against Israel’s apartheid regime”

2. “Top Pro-Israel Group Offered Ocasio-Cortez $100,000 Campaign Cash”

3. “Senate Candidate in Michigan Says He Was Offered $20 Million to Challenge Tlaib”

[1]: https://theintercept.com/2023/11/27/israel-democrats-aipac-b...

[2]: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ocasio-cortez-aipac-offer-con...

[3]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/22/us/politics/hill-harper-r...

[gryzzly]

hm, and how do you feel about Qatar sponsoring higher education in the US? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari_involvement_in_higher_e...

Not sure these three links show that "supposedly morally superior western world is entirely bribed and blackmailed". Especially on the "entirely" and "blackmail" parts.

[hikingsimulator]

> hm, and how do you feel about Qatar sponsoring higher education in the US?

Focusing on international interference by one state does not reduce the blame that can be thrown at another. There's no limited reserve of blame that requires to be cleverly distributed. The undemocratic influence over public institutions by lobbies, like Qatar's (see Qatargate in Europe) or Israeli-linked ones alike and many more, are the death of our societies.

[Adverblessly]

Surely if Israel is bribing in one direction and Qatar is bribing in the other direction, someone is not getting their money's worth? That is, the final result is either that the "western world is entirely bribed and blackmailed to stand behind Israel" or that they don't stand behind Israel.

[hikingsimulator]

That's a dumb argument. It's not like Qatari money is trying to buy the mathematical inverse of Israeli money in a game of tit-for-tat.

[pphysch]

Foreign influence from Qatar is another serious case, but still small fries compared to malign foreign influence from Israel.