[Diederich]

> 2) Having children: Interesting how white, middle class people think having kids is the most expensive thing ever. It's not. ...

Exactly.

Our child's clothing, toys and books come from:

1. Yard sales 2. Helping hands 3. Friends and neighbors 4. Craigslist and Freecycle

Guess what? We give 100% of those things away in time. We've taught our son the concept of not holding onto physical things. All of his things came from someone else, and he gives all of his things to someone else.

He's completely good with that; at 9 years of age, he'll bring a bag of toys and books to the car and say that he'd like to give these away.

Our biggest child related expense is where we're living. We wanted an excellent public school, so we're living in Mountain View, where it's CRAZY expensive, instead of somewhere else that's cheaper.

We are fortunate that we have very solid and affordable health care through my company, though he has needed very little of it.

Thanks, JPKab, for pointing this out.

[geebee]

I think you've made some good observations around the expense of material goods, but as the parent of two kids, I already do this. It helps, but it doesn't address the really expensive things about life with kids.

For me, the big whoppers have been day care and the loss of income on scaling back on work. Full time day care is about 24K a year in San Francisco.

http://www.housing.berkeley.edu/child/facstaff/

This is the faculty/staff daycare that has a long, long waiting list at UC Berkeley - it is considered a very desirable program, so it's possible that you could get something much cheaper.

Another huge expense is housing. I fit a family of 4 in a fairly small (1200 sql ft) house with a garage and backyard (sweet!) in an unfashionable part of SF. Mortgage runs me about $3400 a month - sadly, if I'd waited to buy, I could probably have had this for $2600. Rent would probably be somewhere around that range.

Buying a stroller used is a great idea (I bought all cribs and beds used, and it saved me some money, but I'm really optimizing around something that takes at most 10% of the budget, if that).

I want to be sure to say I'm not complaining, I consider myself pretty lucky to have these things. 1200 sq ft with a garage and a yard is pretty excellent. Nice day care is a luxury. And I get to live in SF, which is where I grew up, and I really like it here.

I wouldn't say you "can't have kids" if you can't afford these things, so I agree with you there, but I just don't think you've identified the real heavy hitters where it comes to the expense of raising a family.

But I really don't think the problem with middle class people is that they are spending too much on strollers. It does take some serious $$$ to stay middle class in San Francisco.

[JPKab]

Diederich, it's interesting how you pointed out living in an expensive school district is your biggest child related expense. My wife and I did the same thing. We chose to live in a 1 bedroom high-rise, so obviously we sacrificed on space and "the yard." Instead we get a short (walkable or train) commute, nice parks, and have a adapted our apartment to imitate those of the Japanese (and other space efficient cultures) so that the 1 bedroom aspect isn't a problem. I love what you were saying about teaching your son to donate toys and other possessions. My son is 5, but we still need to work on that with him. Thanks for mentioning that, because it reminded me of how important it is that we follow your lead on that.

[ChrisHugh]

How "white"? How odd. I didn't know attitudes and ideas had colors.

[JPKab]

You got me there. I wish I could think of a word to describe the group of people who have been brainwashed into thinking that if they don't spend shitloads of money on stuff, and buy a big house in the burbs, that they are bad parents......

But you are right, saying it's a "white" thing is racist of me. There are people of all colors who get trapped into this bullshit, as well as people of all colors who are not fooled by it.

[WiseWeasel]

Bourgeois. Closest English term I can think of which conveys a similar notion is WASP.

I believe they might have been called "city-folk" at some point... maybe the equivalent of suburbanites or gated-community-dwellers today. Maybe saying, "that's a gated-community mentality!" would convey a similar meaning in a succinct and relatively PC way.

[drcube]

What do you think the "W" stands for in WASP?

[WiseWeasel]

I am fully aware of what it represents, hence the need to come up with a less divisive term. I was just observing that it's often used in that context.

[luser001]

I admire what you're doing, but I just wanted to point out that there's a HUGE difference between denying yourself something because you can and denying yourself something because you can't afford it.

The $3 beer incident was poignant.

I found the book 'Nickel and Dimed' eye-opening.

Good job with your kid!