[dtornabene]

In no way is the ability to get citizenship via religious conversion comparable to anything in the US, and as far as I am aware, neither in Europe. You are indeed "writing off Gazan journalism" when saying "Hamas-controlled Gaza", which at this point is ludicrous given that Hamas controls literally nothing in Gaza, and certainly didn't control the Al-jazeera reporters, reuters reporters, Washington post reporters, and so on who have been killed by Israeli airstrikes so far. Also pretty weird argument to make when Israel is one of the only "democracies" in the world whose press operates under military censorship laws and has for decades.

[tptacek]

To the extent you believe there is (or was) a meaningful institution of journalism that operates apart from Hamas in Gaza, we just don't have anything to argue about.

Almost the only issue I personally have with any of these discussions is that the tend to back out into some notion of Hamas being comparably legitimate (or, more often, comparably illegitimate) to Israel. This is why I keep saying that the argument I've made here is very narrow.

If it simplifies things for you: rewind the clock to October 6th. Israel has some measure of state control over the media. So does Hamas. Israel and Hamas are not comparable: Hamas is far, far worse. That's it, that's the whole argument. That this argument doesn't prove a bunch of other points (like, "Israel is therefore a liberal democracy") doesn't matter: I'm not making those points, and probably don't believe them.

I understand how message boards work but you're really going to have to take my word for it that this isn't some elliptical way to lay the groundwork for an argument that legitimizes Israel's current occupation of the Gaza Strip.

[runarberg]

You say you are making a narrow argument, but how? You cannot shape the reality of the argument such that it conveniently fits the narrative. The world is complex, and if there is an important nuance to be added, we cannot just ignore it because the initial argument is narrow. That is not how debating works. Like, we cannot just rewind to October 6th and ignore everything since then. There is important context in events that have unfolded since.

You say: “Hamas is far, far worse” but how? Israel has litterally just banned al Jazeera, I’m not aware that Hamas has e.g. banned the BBC. If your earlier point was that there was no Haaretz operating in Gaza, but how? Gaza is under occupation and a sever blockade, any media operation is bound to suffer under such circumstances. Free journals without state subsidies are hard in most economies, in impoverished regions like Gaza, much more so. And even if such press could thrive, Israel has been targeting journalists in Palestine even before Oct 7, this includes detention and even assassinations.

The state control which Hamas imposes upon journalism in Gaza is minute next to the state control which Israel imposes upon the same population. Hamas’s control is negligible. Yes they operate their own TV station and Radio. But they do not target journalists operating in Gaza, they do not detain and assassinate journalists, they do no not bomb offices of foreign media operators, they do not ban international media from broadcasting in their territory. Israel does all these things.

[tptacek]

The state control which Hamas imposes upon journalism in Gaza is minute next to the state control which Israel imposes upon the same population

This is a rhetorical sleight of hand. I agree: Israel is far more repressive of Gazan journalism than is Hamas. The comparison is between Israel's own journalistic institutions in Israel and Hamas' in Gaza.

[dtornabene]

Pretty telling you stepped right past my point about conversion! Funny how you cherry picked the parts of my comment to respond to and then couched virtually your entire message in hedges! Also Al-Jazzeera has been operating in Gaza for nearly 20 years at this point, they have run pieces and interviews extremely critical of Hamas. As to the "I'm not legitimizing this" final sentence I'm not sure what you think your argument and others you've been dropping in these threads, are supposed to be doing given you sure do love to come in and drop some really gross generalizations and anti-arab racism in the way you paint Palestinian society. You are free to continually reference things like Hamas "throwing PA supporters off roofs", and consequently people are free to wonder and comment on why it is you only seem to pop up in these threads to make interventions like that, and not, say, literally anything at all about atrocities being committed by Israel.

[tptacek]

People are in fact not free to wonder "why it is I only seem to pop up when"; we have a guideline about that.

If you're wondering, though: it's because Hamas is intrinsically loathsome, and I find people mitigating or even defending it to be motivating.