Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by spqrr 808 days ago
Consumption of all drugs is legal in Germany. The problem is buying/selling/production, as well as simple possession. I think this is the case in most countries.
5 comments

This tiny detail makes the difference why employer-mandated drug tests are not a thing in Germany like it is in the US.
> This tiny detail makes the difference why employer-mandated drug tests are not a thing in Germany like it is in the US.

It doesn't explain the difference, no, since the same is true about the US. In most states, consumption of most drugs is not a crime - possession, production, distribution, sale, and trafficking are the actual crimes prosecuted.

Nearly any amount of intoxication is vaguely illegal under disorderly conduct. It’s a catch all they can apply whenever. Fighting it and winning still costs time and money.

So sure, the act of consuming might be legal, but having consumed isn’t.

>Nearly any amount of intoxication is vaguely illegal under disorderly conduct.

Isn't that limited to public spaces? If you're getting high in private you should be fine?

As I understand it, the issue is only about showing up to work with any level of drugs in your system, even if there aren't any actual signs of you being intoxicated.
But that's just a policy some companies have, it has nothing to do with legality.
> Nearly any amount of intoxication is vaguely illegal under disorderly conduct. It’s a catch all they can apply whenever. Fighting it and winning still costs time and money.

This is a weak argument. Almost nobody is getting prosecuted for "disorderly conduct" when under the influence of marijuana as a proxy for marijuana consumption. And even if they were, the connection between that and employer drug tests is extremely tenuous.

Unless you drive a car or own a gun in the US, then if you do get a bad drug test result you can easily get charged with a crime. It is not likely to get drug tested in relation to having a gun, but anywhere pushing DUI enforcement is going to be drug testing significant samples of random people and charging people who may have smoked long ago and had all side effects completely subsided but still charged with a DUI offense. You can get active THC in a blood sample up to 3 days after smoking despite the effects lasting hours at best and levels not increasing or decreasing linearly with consumption. And of course metabolites for cannabis can go back up to an entire month.
> Unless you drive a car or own a gun in the US, then if you do get a bad drug test result you can easily get charged with a crime.

The likelihood of getting charged with a drug-related crime for testing positive for drugs on an employer-mandated drug test, which is the context being discussed, is absolutely minuscule.

You may get fired, but your employer isn't going to refer you to local prosecution, and the prosecution wouldn't take it if they did.

Not sure about Germany, but even possession (of small quantities) is decriminalized in many European countries.
> Not sure about Germany

The title of this post is " Smoking cannabis is now legal in Germany".

Well, obviously. What I meant was "Not sure about how it was before today in Germany". The effects of today's changes are not yet clear.
> This tiny detail makes the difference why employer-mandated drug tests are not a thing in Germany like it is in the US.

I assume that Germany does drug testing for safety-related roles? Crane operators, pilots, nuclear plant operators?

It would be wild if they don't.

AFAIK this is allowed during the approval process for very specific roles, but not just randomly in day-to-day work after admission.

And for good reason. That would be an entirely unproportional encroachment on privacy and personal rights, irrespective of whether the test turns out positive or negative.

last nuclear plant got shutdown a few weeks ago, but, yes, drug testing is a thing (but not popular) even for some office jobs.
I never heard of anyone around me required to do a drug test for work. May be different for people carrying guns, like police and hunters, but that's because of gun license requirements.

A drug test may be legal, or suggested, when there is reasonable suspicion someone was high during work hours. Maybe air traffic controllers and similar professions need to be evidently clean. Otherwise I don't think drug tests are legal in Germany. Even asking about consumption is illegal in most cases.

> Maybe air traffic controllers and similar professions need to be evidently clean.

kinda obscure example. i expect most operators of heavy machinery, human transportation devices and some security professions to require some verification of abstinence. i was tested once in order to get the required permit to drive a van with elderly and disabled ppl for the red cross.

> This tiny detail makes the difference why employer-mandated drug tests are not a thing in Germany like it is in the US.

Not really. The business of employer-mandated drug testing in the EU is generally tricky, and employees enjoy wide ranging protections. Most countries only allow drug testing where there is a certain aspect of risk, and in most of those case, only a physician can perform the test, and cannot share findings, only declare the subject as fit for duties or not.

In Germany, specifically, a pre-employment test but a physician is allowed, and when employed only rarely and for very specific circumstances.

You're probably right that it's the case in most countries, but an interesting counterexample is Sweden, where testing positive on a drug test is a criminal offence. Police can arrest you for appearing to be under the influence of drugs, and if they find any traces in a urine test, they'll fine you for it.

I hope that legalization in Germany will lead to more sane laws in Sweden, but honestly, I'm not holding my breath for it

I saw a man get hassled by Swedish police on a train just after crossing the Øresund Bridge. "The dog is very interested in your bag", they said. The man admitted that maybe he had smoked marijuana in Copenhagen and they left him alone.

I'm sure selective enforcement is at play, but at least in my experience they didn't care.

Prosecution in Sweden for an act committed in another country is generally only possible if it is punishable in both jurisdictions. Internationally it's a relatively common rule in criminal law. Courts have smacked the cops and prosecutors over this so they don't waste time on such cases anymore.
That is not the norm. You won't get charged for smoking in Copenhagen, but it will put you in a high risk category for smuggling so their typical response here is to search you. They were probably under a high workload and had to prioritize heavily.
I have been searched twice crossing Øresundsbroen into Sweden, and both times I was the only one in the carriage to be searched. I have never seen them search anyone else.

They will always be under time pressure as the train needs to depart promptly.

(This is Swedish customs, nothing to do with identity checks. I don't use cannabis or socialise with people that do.)

I heard cannabis is no longer openly sold in Copenhagen.
Up until about a week ago it was, even though they announced otherwise.

However, there was suppressed to be a further push to end it. I haven't walked by Pusher Street since then.

News yesterday (Danish) https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/den-her-gang-er-det-anderl...

Is there any jurisdiction where selective enforcement is not how drug laws are enforced? I'm guessing maybe somewhere like Japan, but I'm sure the vast majority of states do not enforce drug laws very consistently.
Even more wild is Singapore's law that it is illegal for citizens and permanent residents to consume illegal substances, even if that consumption occurred in another country where it is legal.[1]

So you have Singaporeans testing positive for cannabis upon arrival at the airport after a trip to Thailand, who are not in possession of cannabis, have not consumed it in Singapore (or another country where it is illegal) and they are charged with a crime.

[1] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/cannabis-drug-laws...

And if you were behind the wheel, you will be sentenced for driving under influence. Even if it has been days since you smoked a joint.
How about the other Scandinavian countries?
That is insane.
Sweden is (in)famous in Europe for taking probably the continent's hardest line on drugs. Cannabis is in the same category as heroin and treated accordingly, there's no tolerance for medical use etc.
Possession of certain substances sure isn’t legal in Germany.
What did they legalize now, then?
Essentially:

Production and trade under very strict restriction in so-called cannabis clubs.

Trade as a non-narcotic medication in pharmacies, restricted to prescriptions.

Production at home, with very strict limits towards quantity of plants and size of harvest.

Possession of limited amounts of cannabis and thus public consumption with restrictions regarding proximity to institutions for children.

It should be noted that a lot of things are still illegal and are being worked on. Two examples:

You are not allowed to share cannabis.

The amount of THC in your blood that would make it illegal to drive is 1 ng/mL blood serum. This is essentially nothing and can, anecdotally, be triggered by losing weight after consuming.

> illegal to drive is 1 ng/mL blood serum.

I've had the opportunity to see one of the infamous German drug tests in practice (wasn't driving). The result is that if you used any canabis 4 days earlier it will show up on the pee test. It was waved off as no issue, but four young Dutch people in car got their attention a bit too much apparently. If they thought we were the type they were looking for they had cause to do whatever. We were not the ones they were after though as we were not going to the nearby festival and were just driving by.

The 1ng limit will very very likely be changed to 3.5.
What’s the mL unit?
milliliter
TIL, it’s really mL… thanks :)
> As of 1 April, adults in Germany are allowed to carry up to 25g of dried cannabis on them and cultivate up to three marijuana plants at home.
Oh, it was allowed to consume it, but not carry it? That's a bit odd.
No, it makes sense with the philosophy of german law. It's not illegal to harm yourself. It is not illegal to flee from the police or from prison. But of course there are various crimes surrounding the allowed behaviour.
Hmm, what are the crimes surrounding fleeing, or escaping? Property damage?
Isnt it reasonable to penalize drug trafficking over consumption, which just targets end users
It is, it's just a bit odd that I can be prosecuted while smoking a blunt, not because I'm smoking it but because I have it.
> Over-18s can now to carry up to 25 grams of dried cannabis and cultivate up to three marijuana plants at home
buying, selling, production and possession (there are still regulations, but these things are now legal in some form)
However, bear in mind that consumption is grounds for investigation because of the high probability of illegal acquisition or production.